Cleric Feats- why so few?

[phalaeo]

I've heard it referenced that a Cleric is to a Wizard and a FvS is to a Sorc. There are indeed many similarities between each analogous class, except one thing which I've always wondered about....

If Clerics "are to" Wizards, why do they get bonus feats, and we are feat starved?

I know the easy answer is that this game is based off of PnP, but I've read countless threads about how things have to differ somewhat in DDO due to the fact that it's live action, not turn based. Is there some game balancing reason as to why Clerics can't have bonus feats like Wizards that I'm missing?

I've also wondered the same about damage enhancement lines and crit chances, but that's more greed than need.

[FlyingTurtle]

If Clerics had +5 feats like wizards, there would be no build tradeoffs. Everyone would be able to afford full battle cleric / offensive caster AND healing capabilities, and so all clerics would be clones.

[k1ngp1n]

Lore-wise, it has to do with the nature of how cleric's acquire their spells and how they cast them. Wizards study, endlessly. Their spells are practiced rigorously. Therefore, they are adept at twisting them into different forms - aka metamagics. Sorcerors project their spells through the force of their own personality and desire, and therefore are not as adept at altering the spells.

Clerics are strictly faith based. Their spells come from the belief that their spell will work, not practice. The cleric's spellcasting flexibility is the ability to cast any of their spells as a healing spell. In DDO cleric's get them for free - this is their spellcasting bonus. Adding free metamagics would give clerics two spellcasting bonuses.

Wizards are the masters of arcane flexibility. Clerics are the masters of preparation through faith. Those who make the 'clerics are divine wizards' are simplifying the relationship to whether or not they can switch spells at will.

[Alabore]

If Clerics "are to" Wizards, why do they get bonus feats, and we are feat starved?

Must be leftovers from older D&D editions.
Clerics are front-loaded with proficiency feats; that makes them more durable in low level game.
Of course the way DDO works, they could easily strip clerics to robes, only give them dagger and quarterstaff, and most vets wouldn't even blink.
All considered, I am willing to say some players would happily trade the weapon/armour proficiency for more metamagic feats; either they splash fighter and they get them anyway, or they stay pure casters, and wouldn't touch a sword for most of their life.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Clerics get Heavy Armor prof, Shield prof, more Weapon profs, no Spell Failure, 3/4 BAB, good Fort saves, and Turn Undead over top of a Wizard.

Some of that may not have much relevance in current DDO, but it's the tradeoff. And the missing Domains.

[Cpw]

Because clerics can cast in armor, have a better BAP, hit point die, and other differences . They really are nothing like a wizard.

[phalaeo]

If Clerics had +5 feats like wizards, there would be no build tradeoffs. Everyone would be able to afford full battle cleric / offensive caster AND healing capabilities, and so all clerics would be clones.

Oh- if more feats were implemented, I wouldn't assume 5. Hell, I'd be happy with just one bonus feat.

I'm of the opposite opinion as you. I don't feel like there are many ways to make a pure Cleric build stand out as unique without gimping it. You've got the "biggies"- Quicken, Maximize, Empower Healing, Toughness... after that, Empower, and possibly Extend or Heighten. I'd bet you most capped Clerics would have a tough time choosing which one of those to give up.

I'm not saying it SHOULD happen, but what would be so bad about giving us one or two Class Feats towards a Spell Focus to allow us to have more specialization?

[PopeJual]

In addition to the fighting feats that Clerics get and Wizards don't get, Clerics get Domains. That more than compensates for the extra feats that Wizards get in Pen and Paper.

If Turbine brings Domains into the game, then I think I'd park my FvS for a while and enjoy some Cleric love. I'm thinking Earth and Travel domains or Trickery and Travel domains.

Elemental swarm.... Yum.

[phalaeo]

Clerics are strictly faith based. Their spells come from the belief that their spell will work

Well, what happens if my Cleric faithfully believes she'll get one bonus Meta and a Spell Focus?

Wizards study, endlessly. Their spells are practiced rigorously.

My Cleric practices rigorously! She Shrouds every three days and doesn't go a week without a ToD!

No, seriously- as much as I'd like to see one or two more feats, this is the best explanation I've heard so far. Thank you for taking the time to explain.

Having no PnP background, I am constantly amazed at the complexity of the lore. I may not know all of it, but I respect it's there. Thanks again for sharing this with me and not neg repping me for asking a naive question.

[phalaeo]

In addition to the fighting feats that Clerics get and Wizards don't get, Clerics get Domains. That more than compensates for the extra feats that Wizards get in Pen and Paper.

If Turbine brings Domains into the game, then I think I'd park my FvS for a while and enjoy some Cleric love. I'm thinking Earth and Travel domains or Trickery and Travel domains.

Elemental swarm.... Yum.

I've read up some on Domains, but have no idea how they would practically fit into DDO gameplay. I like the concept, though and from the little I know, I think it would be a welcome addition that would add to diversity within the class.

[flynnjsw]

I've read up some on Domains, but have no idea how they would practically fit into DDO gameplay. I like the concept, though and from the little I know, I think it would be a welcome addition that would add to diversity within the class.

I think the biggest issue you would run into if Turbine added Domains is that unless they added icons for each Domain, you would have no idea what type of Cleric you were getting in your party. However, it would end once and for all the "Clerics are Healers" debate once and for all.

[Visty]

clerics dont get bonus feats cause they get 2 domains...oh wait

[flynnjsw]

clerics dont get bonus feats cause they get 2 domains...oh wait

And the Domain powers associated with them...oh wait lol.

[Visty]

And the Domain powers associated with them...oh wait lol.

yeah, i was including that in the term "domain"

[flynnjsw]

yeah, i was including that in the term "domain"

The only reason I added that was because the OP stated they didn't have any PnP experience. He DID say that he read up a bit on Domains, but was not sure on whether that was included in his reading.

[diamabel]

I would mostly say that it's some historic baggage (or plainly: we are stuck with what Turbine implemented).


Priests/clerics have changed somewhat over time. In previous editions you had some more variety and custom made classes. You had the general cleric (or as I like to call them the "general medic" ,) ) and every faith had some custom sub class (e.g. druid, shaman to name some examples). Depending on their faiths the sub classes could get some additional abilities/skills, martial training or spell like abilities. On top of that every subtype of cleric had a different spell list to reflect the agendas of their worshipped deities (some even had only limited access to healing spells).

With 3rd edition it was a little more streamlined. Instead of the different spell lists each cleric type has access to the same general spell list (there is no more any danger that some special priest/cleric have a useless spell selection). The druid is still an exception here as it has a spell list of its own. To still allow some customization of clerics the domains have been added. That means some extra spells for each spell level (from 1st to 9th grade) and, depending on their worshipped deity, even some extra skills/abilities/feats.


In DDO you have to settle with just the "general cleric". And luckily you don't have the other "RP" requirements that come with classes such as paladins, monks and clerics (especially if the characters get more involved in their faith's organisation).

Dunno if domains will be added. But Turbine already paved the way towards enhancements (it seems like a crutch to implement such changes and prestige classes). If something like this would be implemented then you'd probably have to reset your enhancements and spend the action points accordingly (but that is just speculatiion). As of now we have enhancement lines for the sovereign host, the silver flame, the undying court, the drow thing and the lord of blades.
The Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's guide mention deities that are not part of the eberron campaign setting and associate domains with them. So this would have to be translated somehow to fit the eberron theme. More likely that would mean splitting up the enhancement line for the sovereign host and make an enhancement line for each deity.

[phalaeo]

The only reason I added that was because the OP stated they didn't have any PnP experience. She DID say that he read up a bit on Domains, but was not sure on whether that was included in her reading.

TBH- I've read a decent amount, but the practicality and application escapes me not having seen it in actual gameplay.

For instance, here's a list of stuff for Cleric Fire Domain
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm

Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster fire creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.

1. Burning Hands: 1d4/level fire damage (max 5d4).
2. Produce Flame: 1d6 damage +1/ level, touch or thrown.
3. Resist Energy*: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
4. Wall of Fire: Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall deals 2d6 damage +1/level. OMG, WHUT? How come nobody told me this!!!!
5. Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold.
6. Fire Seeds: Acorns and berries become grenades and bombs.
7. Fire Storm: Deals 1d6/level fire damage.
8. Incendiary Cloud: Cloud deals 4d6 fire damage/round.
9. Elemental Swarm**: Summons multiple elementals.

So how does that translate into DDO-friendly terms? It's an at will, non-SP using ability that costs one turn? If I'm reading it correctly, it would be implemented like Radiant Servant.

IIRC, the development team has said that Domains are not in game because they haven't worked out how to implement them. How can this be? I mean, we have past life feats that give X-per-rest at will spell-like abilities... Am I misunderstanding the dev team?

I'm also seeing spells that Clerics don't have (at least in DDO), like Barkskin, Invisibility, Fire Shield, DDoor, Disintegrate.... what's the deal with that? I know of those as Arcane spells, what is the lore and laws regarding the separation between Divine and Arcane spells?

And if that isn't enough, lastly...

Clerics get Domains. That more than compensates for the extra feats that Wizards get in Pen and Paper.

Can you explain to me why you think it more than compensates? We have no class enhancements to damage multipliers, damage amplification and crit chance besides the line for Healing. Personally, I'd rather be taking a Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for the spells I already have than take a WoF with no damage enhancements other than standard metas and potency. Am I misunderstanding you or misinterpreting how it is applied per PnP rules?

[flynnjsw]

TBH- I've read a decent amount, but the practicality and application escapes me not having seen it in actual gameplay.

For instance, here's a list of stuff for Cleric Fire Domain
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm



So how does that translate into DDO-friendly terms? It's an at will, non-SP using ability that costs one turn? If I'm reading it correctly, it would be implemented like Radiant Servant.

IIRC, the development team has said that Domains are not in game because they haven't worked out how to implement them. How can this be? I mean, we have past life feats that give X-per-rest at will spell-like abilities... Am I misunderstanding the dev team?

I'm also seeing spells that Clerics don't have (at least in DDO), like Barkskin, Invisibility, Fire Shield, DDoor, Disintegrate.... what's the deal with that? I know of those as Arcane spells, what is the lore and laws regarding the separation between Divine and Arcane spells?

And if that isn't enough, lastly...



Can you explain to me why you think it more than compensates? We have no class enhancements to damage multipliers, damage amplification and crit chance besides the line for Healing. Personally, I'd rather be taking a Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus for the spells I already have than take a WoF with no damage enhancements other than standard metas and potency. Am I misunderstanding you or misinterpreting how it is applied per PnP rules?

Sorry, from reading other posts of yours I should have known about the gender part. My apologies.

In PnP there are no "enhancements" that increase your damage outside of your meta's so in essence all spells are created equal. A cleric's WoF that is meta'd will be just as powerful as a Wizards/sorcerers that is meta'd. THAT is why it more than compensates, at least in PnP. In DDO, the compensation would come from just the access to the spells and Spell-Like Abilities.

As far as what you were asking about the Domain Power, it is the ability to turn a water-based creature (water elemental for instance) as if it were an undead. The spells are not considered Domain Powers, they are just spells added to the Clerics spell list and cast as any others.

[Alabore]

Wizards study, endlessly. Their spells are practiced rigorously.

We could argue, clerics pray fervently.



...

Also, clerics get tenet enhancements.
Not quite full blown domains, but they give extra powers nonetheless.

[Legohaiden]

Lore-wise, it has to do with the nature of how cleric's acquire their spells and how they cast them. Wizards study, endlessly. Their spells are practiced rigorously. Therefore, they are adept at twisting them into different forms - aka metamagics. Sorcerors project their spells through the force of their own personality and desire, and therefore are not as adept at altering the spells.

Clerics are strictly faith based. Their spells come from the belief that their spell will work, not practice. The cleric's spellcasting flexibility is the ability to cast any of their spells as a healing spell. In DDO cleric's get them for free - this is their spellcasting bonus. Adding free metamagics would give clerics two spellcasting bonuses.

Wizards are the masters of arcane flexibility. Clerics are the masters of preparation through faith. Those who make the 'clerics are divine wizards' are simplifying the relationship to whether or not they can switch spells at will.

Well Said!
+1