usefulness of balance

[Hokonoso]

I could just as easily posted this in the fighter forums but im posting it here for all you pally experts. Since paladins/fighters only get 1 skill point per level (per int) many people have put that point in balance as it is the only way to raise your dc for standing up after getting knocked down!

However, with the upcoming change to making intimidate a class skill and the nerf to knockdown dc (was dropped in half at least) the need for balance seems to take a backseat to more useful skills for a paladin.

Ok now time for a scenerio. Let's say you are a paladin with 40 base str (before rage/pots/buffs/anything). I do believe that is the magic number to save on a knockdown on a 2 (not perfect testing so could be wrong, but none of my toons with 40ish str have gotten knocked down on anything but a 1 so it could be less). My question is, on such a character, how useful is balance when you only have 1 skill point per level as a paladin? I envision myself sitting on my arse a long time when i roll a 1, but other than that 5% I'll be standing very nicely!

And incase you don't understand why I ask, half-orc only have 6 int so any potential half-orc paladin will not have skill points to play with

[PresentTense]

All player characters receive a minimum of one skill point per level, at least in pencil and paper, no matter what their intelligence is. I have not seen confirmation that this is the case in DDO, however, as half-orc is the first int-penalty race.

[Goldeneye]

Order of Importance (In my personal opinion)

1. UMD
2. Intimidate
3. Balance

[diamabel]

Well, for paladins or fighters it's 2 + (int modifier) skill points per level. If you start with an intelligence of 8 that would mean only 1 skill point per level. ,)

If I get it correctly either your strength or dexterity (whichever is higher) is considered when trying to resist being tripped (as well as size of both the attacker and the target of the attack). According to http://ddowiki.com/page/Balance the balance skill will allow you to get up faster.


edited.
Good news for Half-Orcs. You should get at least 1 skill point per level (even with only intelligence 6).

[PresentTense]

Aah, cool. I was assuming they would stick to the minimum of one skill point but hadn't heard confirmation.

[der_kluge]

Strength resists knockdown.

Balance is used for not falling down during Grease, sleet storm, and certain mudman effects. Also controls how long you stay down, I believe.

[Hokonoso]

Order of Importance (In my personal opinion)

1. UMD
2. Intimidate
3. Balance

yes i agree with this assessment, but half-orcs get 1 skill per level and i imagine 2 from lvl 7+ with an int tome. and i know how balance works as i only plan to get knocked down when i roll a 1 to resist the trip/knockdown effect, but my main issue is, should i put points in int to gain another skill or max str and keep int at 6 and just ignore it.

for further clarification, i have a double TR toon with a +4 cha tome that will end up a half-orc paladin with 16 base cha and divine might 4.

[Goldeneye]

I wouldn't worry about balance.
STR Mod + GH + Buffs should give you enough balance.

Personally, I'd only invest in INT if you wanted enough skill points to cover UMD and Intimidate.

...though, that's just my opinion

[Therigar]

LOL, I thought I was the only one in the entire DDO world waiting on half-orc so that I could roll a paladin.

I have started a half-orc paladin on Lamannia and I put the skill point into Intimidate at each level. I did not even contemplate balance. The choice for me was among jump, swim and intimidate. With only 1 point I ended going with intimidate just to give it a try as paladins may get some added play as intimitanks now.

I seem to recall another thread somewhere that the higher of STR and DEX is used to recover. If playing a high STR character it wouldn't seem that balance should be needed as a skill.

[Therigar]

i Wouldn't Worry About Balance.
Str Mod + Gh + Buffs Should Give You Enough Balance.

Personally, I'd Only Invest In Int If You Wanted Enough Skill Points To Cover Umd And Intimidate.

...though, That's Just My Opinion

+1

[cebridges]

i'm pretty newb on the rules, but doesn't fortification help not getting knocked down, too?

[smckelv]

...but none of my toons with 40ish str have gotten knocked down on anything but a 1 so it could be less).

That sounds great, but I am at a loss to figure out how to get 40ish strength on my Pally (before buffs).
Seems lik max STR 18+6+2(tome)+2(exceptional)=28

What am I missing?

[Therigar]

i'm pretty newb on the rules, but doesn't fortification help not getting knocked down, too?

No, at least not that I'm aware. Fort prevents crits which is much more important.

[Therigar]

That sounds great, but I am at a loss to figure out how to get 40ish strength on my Pally (before buffs).
Seems lik max STR 18+6+2(tome)+2(exceptional)=28

What am I missing?

Half-orc starts with STR bonus so 20 @ creation if you want. +2 from enhancements. These are only on half-orc.

But, STR also comes from rage and other sources. Don't forget you can get +5 from stat increases @ L4/8/etc. Also exceptional STR on some items.

Base 18 STR w stat increases & exceptional STR item gain +8 more taking you to 36. Half-orc gets +4 from racial bonuses taking them to 40 w/o rage spell/potion or Madstone effects, etc.

[Mercureal]

I wouldn't worry about balance.
STR Mod + GH + Buffs should give you enough balance.

Personally, I'd only invest in INT if you wanted enough skill points to cover UMD and Intimidate.

...though, that's just my opinion

That is what I'd do if making the same kind of character. You can get decent enough balance without spending points on Int.

Minimalist example
Heroism pots: +2
Voice: +1
Dex (assuming 10 and +6 item): +3
Balance item (equipped when fighting trippy mobs): +1-15

Total: +7-21

That should be enough to get yourself back on your feet before getting too beat up.

[Therigar]

Balance is used for not falling down during Grease, sleet storm, and certain mudman effects.

This is incorrect. Grease, sleet storm, etc. have a reflex save to avoid falling. The balance skill does not affect the value of the reflex save. Reflex saves are based on DEX or (if you have Insightful Reflexes) INT.

Balance is used to recover if you fall. Balance is determined by the higher of STR or DEX modifier plus balance skill points.

[smckelv]

Base 18 STR w stat increases & exceptional STR item gain +8 more taking you to 36. Half-orc gets +4 from racial bonuses taking them to 40 w/o rage spell/potion or Madstone effects, etc.

Yes that makes sense now to include the buffs getting to 40. For me (a human) my unbuffed goal is 30 STR. I can get +2 exceptional From my ToD ring crafting. Yeah, rage/madstone (or cookies) would get you up pretty high. Probably a human can't reach 40.

Thanks.

[Therigar]

Yes that makes sense now to include the buffs getting to 40. For me (a human) my unbuffed goal is 30 STR. I can get +2 exceptional From my ToD ring crafting. Yeah, rage/madstone (or cookies) would get you up pretty high. Probably a human can't reach 40.

Thanks.

Human:

18 STR @ creation
05 STR stat increases @ L4/8/12/16/20
01 STR stat enhancement
02 STR tome from Turbine Store
06 STR item
02 Exceptional STR on ToD ring
--
34 STR w/o buffs

then add in

34 unbuffed STR
02 Rage from potion or spell
02 Rage from Madstone boots
02 Rage from hidden Madstone boots effect
--
40 STR w self buffs

now add on

40 self-buffed STR
01 additional STR from +3 tome
01 airship STR buff
02 Yugoloth potion
--
44 STR

So, yes you cold get to 40+ STR on a human. Even on a human that puts the stat increases into something other than STR you can get to 40 STR.

18 STR @ creation
01 STR stat enhancement
02 STR tome from Turbine Store
06 STR item
02 Exceptional STR on ToD ring
02 Rage from potion or spell
02 Rage from Madstone boots
02 Rage from hidden Madstone boots effect
01 additional exceptional STR on a greensteel weapon
01 additional STR from +3 tome
01 airship STR buff
02 Yugoloth potion
--
40 STR w self buffs

[Hokonoso]

That sounds great, but I am at a loss to figure out how to get 40ish strength on my Pally (before buffs).
Seems lik max STR 18+6+2(tome)+2(exceptional)=28

What am I missing?

im a 2nd Tr so...

Str: 18 +5 levels +4 tome +2 enhancement +7 item +3 exceptional +1 ship= 40

or if you gimp yourself start with 20 str for 42

edit: kyosho's ring has +1 str on it so i wouldnt need to gimp myself with a greensteel weapon (epic sos is all i need).

realistically ill be looking at a 38 standing str tho since im not gonna rely on ship buffs for it, of course that is 40 standing with rage pot so it's all good. only +3 str tome atm, hope to get a 4 on my 20th coming up if im super duper lucky, already have +4 cha so who knows?

[smckelv]

Level ups seem the key. I looked closer at mine and saw level ups in other stats that I could shift with a heart of wood. Though I made a conscious effort to put 2 level ups in CHA at the expense of strength as I capped.