Cleric info please

[Rustmyer]

Hey all I just started playing the other day, I decided to play Cleric as in most of the other games I've played there always seems to be a lack of decent healers. After a little playing and looking around though I've come to realize that Clerics in this game don't just heal, but can actually hold their own, even while soloing. Also it seems as though a lot of people won't even invite Clerics unless they can do more than hang back and heal. I've looked over many guides throughout the forums, but even those that are written for the same build seem to vary, sometimes widely, as for what you should put points in. I'm primarily looking for a build that will be able to keep myself and any party I'm a part of alive and buffed. Other than that I'm not even sure if I should be a Caster, or Melee. I think I'm leaning towards Caster but... I'll probably end up deleting my current Cleric and restarting (he's only lvl 2). Basically I was looking for some input, should I be Caster or Melee, or is there some other choice I missed? That's that for now, after I get some more info I'll be looking for a build, but that'll come later. Thank you for any info given.

[Octavi]

Clerics tend to be able to do 2 out of 3 things well. Depending on player experience, build points available and gear.

1. Heal/Buff
2. Offensive cast
3. Melee

You can choose to do just 1 but you would not be using a cleric to their full ability. For your first cleric I would suggest focus on heals/buffs and when you are confident in your sp management throw around some offensive spells. This is generally an easier build as you can dump most stats allowing you to maximise Wis and Con (and possibly Cha if you want to go that route).

[der_kluge]

Despite what Octavi says, "melee" is not something *any* cleric will ever be able to do well.


Here's my opinion. Visty wil be along shortly to decry "healing focus" clerics shortly, but nevertheless....

It *might* be possible to make a high hit point, fighting cleric, but you would do so at massive reductions in your spellcasting ability. It wouldn't be worth it, in my opinion. Thing is, clerics don't get hit point enhancements (unless you take toughness), and they don't get +hit enhancements, and they don't +ac enhancements (unless you take levels in fighter).

Lots of folks take two levels of monk with their cleric in order to pick up evasion and some AC boosts, since monks benefit from a high Wisdom (search for "Clonk" for build examples).

Clonks are pretty good, but if you don't own monk, and want to shoot for straight cleric, then I would recommend focusing on Wis, Con, and Cha in that order. A maxed out wisdom is probably not imperative (I did with mine, but it really adds not so much overall), but a good charisma really helps (especially with radiant servant) and a good con will help keep you alive. Dex is useless as is Int. Str is also not all that useful (don't neglect it, because you will wear heavy armor), but something like a 12 would be enough, IMHO. Another 2-3 points of damage to you 1d8 heavy mace is going to pale in comparison to the sorcerer's 400 damage fireballs, and the barbarian's 100 point crits. It's a waste of time.

So, if your goal is to keep people alive (an admirable goal!), then what you want is an unlimited supply of Divine Vitality/Turn Undead/Radiant auras (that's where the charisma comes in), and a near endless supply of mana (that's where the wisdom comes in). Oh, and try not to die (that's where the Con comes in).

[JollySwagMan]

First off, Welcome to the forums!

and yes, you can expect a fair bit of difference in opinion.

I disagree with Der Kluge's straw man dismissal of melee Clerics, but rather than derail your thread I'll let that argument wait.

Melee is a perfectly viable option, however I would recommend getting to grips with Divine casting first. By that mean:

*Learning the game interface - things like health bars, examination panel, chat panels etc. can all be moved around the screen. You can also undock a chat panel, eg. the Combat panel - the Combat panel is a great resource as it provides feedback on almost every dice roll. As a caster you will need a lot of hotbars, especially for spells like Resist Energy. I find it easiest to use mouselook mode most of the time; put trip, sneak, a couple of offensive spells, a couple of healing spells, a shield + diplo on my main hotbar; pressing the r-mouse button to allow selection of specific hotbar icons. Alternately you can use Ctrl+[number] to select the hotbar you need, or Ctrl+mousewheel. Group members can be targeted with the F keys, TAB key to target an enemy, Q to select something you can interact with, E to interact with it.

*Learning the spells you can use, which ones you can use Wands/Scrolls/Potions/Clickies for, which ones you can boost with equipment/feats/enhancements.
*Learning when to spend spellpoints, when/who to heal, when to use offensive spells, when to buff
*Learning in-game actions that help to deal with potentially tough situations: Tripping enemy casters, Shield blocking, Jumping when casting a spell on the move,
*Learning quests so you can manage your resources effectively
*Learning additional Cleric abilities like Turns/turn-related abilities, Unyielding Sovereignty

A casting-oriented Cleric requires very little in the way of gear/build advantages and is an excellent choice for a new player.

Have you seen Sirgog's Cleric Build Catalogue ?

So...I would actually suggest the 'Melee Capable Cleric' if you intend to play with random groups ("PUGs") mostly, because although it is melee capable, you won't see much difference in spellcasting ability until late in the game. PUGs can be notoriously bad at working with a Cleric's offensive spells, so having the melee option may save you some headaches while you're learning the content. It really is a great build to learn with.

If you intend to play mostly with guildies/friends then I would more readily suggest a Pure Offensive Casting build.

Ah! Also, check out The Great Samulas' Path to Enlightenment, it's the holy book of Cleric advice on the forums.

[DToNE]

Cleric is probably -THE- premier versatile casting class. It has every casting style available and it has many buffs that can turn the scrawniest kid on the block into something street brawl ready. The main question is how would YOU like to play the game. Once you figure that out, you develop a build around it while running a test build.

By finding how YOU like to play the game, I mean finding your natural affinities. Do you like heavy weapons? Do you like to be fast? Do you think armor is cumbersome? Is it more important to sacrifice everything to bring the enemy down a.s.a.p or would you rather be able to endure fight after fight?

One thing about Cleric builds is that they can be pretty forgiving as long as you remember to heal. As long as you can heal well, you can do whatever you want, thus it is important to figure out what style you would like to play in the long run.

Truth is, no matter HOW skilled you are, no matter how long you've played, you'll ALWAYS be criticized on your build. Doesn't matter if you built "The perfect/ideal cleric", someone's ALWAYS gonna say it's garbage and you should reroll.

So, my advice is, build a melee capable, heavy casting type Cleric first to see into both worlds (1~2 levels of fighter will do for your first). Once you find a build that you can honestly say "yeah, this is me", stick to it. If it fits you like a glove, it's only natural that you play well with it.


Like any well made game, it's 80% Planning and 20% Implementing.

[Rustmyer]

Four responses and still so much to think about. Thank you for your input guys. I'll go over what you all said and try and figure out what I should work on. Thank you very much.

[Raoull]

I disagree with Der Kluge's straw man dismissal of melee Clerics, but rather than derail your thread I'll let that argument wait.

First... generally great points.

That said, I think Kluge's point, which seems to match my experience, is that a straight cleric isn't going to melee well. He mentions the Monk or Fighter splashes which are pretty key to having a decent melee cleric.

Which... if you decide to go that route is rather key info to know ahead of time, especially since a Monk lvl is best taken first for skills.

[sainy_matthew]

Despite what Octavi says, "melee" is not something *any* cleric will ever be able to do well.

[...]

It *might* be possible to make a high hit point, fighting cleric, but you would do so at massive reductions in your spellcasting ability. It wouldn't be worth it, in my opinion. Thing is, clerics don't get hit point enhancements (unless you take toughness), and they don't get +hit enhancements, and they don't +ac enhancements (unless you take levels in fighter).

Clerics do get to hit & AC bonuses... We just call them Bull Strength & Cats Grace respectively.

Just be clear, Battle Cleric doen't straight melee, they use a hybrid of buffs, heals & actual combat to out class fighters & if the fighter doesn't like it because he keeps on dying, its a sign he either needs to bring his own buffs or look at why he keeps on dying in the 20 seconds your cleric was being awesome.

-M

[JollySwagMan]

That said, I think Kluge's point, which seems to match my experience, is that a straight cleric isn't going to melee well. He mentions the Monk or Fighter splashes which are pretty key to having a decent melee cleric.

Which... if you decide to go that route is rather key info to know ahead of time, especially since a Monk lvl is best taken first for skills.

In general I can agree with this, but there are exceptions. These aren't exceptions that I would recommend to a new Cleric player, but I don't think that it's prudent to say

"melee" is not something *any* cleric will ever be able to do well.

Instead, it would be more accurate to say that there are many bad ways to try making/playing a melee Cleric, and a good way to avoid these mistakes is to play a casting oriented Cleric first - as well as a more traditional melee build.

[Rustmyer]

Ok so after taking in all what was said I think I've got an idea of what I want to try, I've got a couple more questions first though. Being a Cleric I can wear armor without worrying about spells failing if I were to take lvls in Wiz/Sor, I would be subject to the possibility of those spells failing due to my armor correct? Also how exactly does one Cross class? Do I just raise certain skills till I have access to their spell lists? I'll probably eventually try and tweak my toon to allow for melee, but I think for now I'll stick with spell casting.

[zorander6]

Arcane failure will only apply to the wiz/sorc lines, however generally it's not a good idea to cross class casting types. Mixing a melee class with a casting class usually works better.

To cross class, you talk to the trainer you wish to switch to at level up.

[r3dl4nce]

never cross class spellcasting classes

NO cleric/wizard
NO cleric/sorcerer
NO cleric/fvs
NO cleric/bard
and so on..

[Rustmyer]

never cross class spellcasting classes

NO cleric/wizard
NO cleric/sorcerer
NO cleric/fvs
NO cleric/bard
and so on..

Uh, OK. Perhaps I misunderstood, I thought I needed to take wiz/sorc to gain access to their spell list so I could properly Offensive cast (I think that's the right term here). I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a pain, I just apparently don't quite have my head around this yet.

[Bloodlance]

as a new player, you want to stay as Pure Cleric. Meaning 20 levels of Cleric.

you choose from 2 options, depending where you aim in "endgame"

healer/offencive casting
or
healer/offencive melee

I would aim to, healer/offencive casting. melee route usually makes you go 17 cleric/2monk/1rogue or something like that.

[der_kluge]

"cross-class" is a term that gets applied to skills. Meaning, certain skills apply to whichever class you are currently advancing. Anything not in that list, costs more.

r3dl4nce is right, though. Never mix spellcasting classes. That is to say - You CAN, but it's a phenomenally bad idea. Thing is, wizards and clerics require different attributes to make them effective, and if you end up as say, a 10th level cleric, 10th level wizard, you'll suck both as a cleric, and as a wizard. Bad idea.

If you insist on multi-classing, look for classes the synergize well with one another. Rogue/wizard, for example, since rogues benefit greatly from the wizard's high intelligence.

Other examples include:
Cleric/monk
Rogue/Ranger
Bard/Barbarian
Paladin/Sorcerer

To change into a different class, all you have to do is talk to the appropriate trainer and advance in that class. You can only have 3 classes total.

[r3dl4nce]

Read the divine spells list.
You will find crowd control spells (greater command, hold) damage spells (inflict/harm, searing light, blade barrier-the divine firewall-) and insta death spells (destruction, implosion).

So really, just stay pure and have a good time casting!

[richieelias27]

Uh, OK. Perhaps I misunderstood, I thought I needed to take wiz/sorc to gain access to their spell list so I could properly Offensive cast (I think that's the right term here). I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a pain, I just apparently don't quite have my head around this yet.

To me it sounds as if he is thinking that adding a level of Wiz/Sorc "unlocks" their spell list. In D&D this is not the case. with 19 levels of cleric and one level of wiz/sorc you would cast cleric spells as if you were a 19th level cleric, with access to level 1 wiz/sorc spells which would all be cast as if you were a 1st level wiz/sorc. This is why multiclassing two casters is generally not a great idea.

[JollySwagMan]

Have you had a look at http://ddowiki.com/page/Cleric ?

There's a chart on the level progression that says how many spells you get per level, and a link to the Cleric spell list.

Clerics gain spells by levelling up.

[Rustmyer]

To me it sounds as if he is thinking that adding a level of Wiz/Sorc "unlocks" their spell list. In D&D this is not the case. with 19 levels of cleric and one level of wiz/sorc you would cast cleric spells as if you were a 19th level cleric, with access to level 1 wiz/sorc spells which would all be cast as if you were a 1st level wiz/sorc. This is why multiclassing two casters is generally not a great idea.

Yes this is more or less what I thought. I was under the impression that Offensive Casting meant I needed training in Wiz/Sorc to a specific level so that I had access to that list of spells. I understand, now that I've taken a closer look at the Cleric spell list, that the spells being referred to are on the Cleric list. I believe I have just one last question. I keep reading people posting about bursts, both as something that heals and as something that damages. I assume they are referring to the "Mass" spells correct.

[JollySwagMan]

You may be thinking of the Radiant Servant I positive energy burst

When you take the Radiant Servant prestige enhancement, your Turns regenerate, Empower Healing becomes more effective, your positive/alignment based spells are cast at a level higher and you get the healing burst ability.

The healing burst is considered a level 4 positive energy spell like ability, and so is affected by Devotion/Ardor 4 (or higher). If you have Empower Healing activated it's boosted by that as well. You target yourself when casting it, and it restores HP and removes negative levels from everyone within radius. It also deals damage to undead.