Dark Monk ninja III ? delayed?

[woundweaver]

im still interested to know if you can touch of death a pale master, being negative energy and all, and heal with it? has anyone confirmed this?

[Calebro]

im still interested to know if you can touch of death a pale master, and heal with it? has anyone confirmed this?

You can't target party members with melee attacks. No friendly fire for melee.

[MrFestive]

Eh -- I don't really see how you can misinterpret them -- "you should see two Touches of Death 80% of the time (once from your right hand, once from your left)". I interpret it to mean than the developer is expecting that you TOD will go off with each hand, provided that each hand actually has an attack as determined by the offhand attack percentage.

Are you interpreting it to mean that he is explaining how it works in the current state of the game, but that they intended it all along to be a single strike? If so, that seems like quite a bit of a stretch -- I can't see any evidence of this mechanic and you would just be guessing at the developers intentions. What about all the other special attacks in the game -- paladin smites, monk elemental strikes, etc...? Are those supposed to be single shots as well?

[Drakos]

This is why the reputation system doesnt work ... he was 100% wrong .. eladrin said himself that the double strike would multiply stack with ToD as a method of balancing monk dps with fighters and barbarians ...

Partially correct. I do recall Eladrin saying that it had the ability to multi-proc on off-hand. I saw nothing where he said it was on purpose and designed to shore up Monk DPS.

It was stated that ToD damage was intentionally overshadowing what a light side monke could do because dark monks were suposed to have better DPS than dark.

I still don't see a light side monke out DPS'ing a dark even after this justifiable adjustment.

[Calebro]

Are you interpreting it to mean that he is explaining how it works in the current state of the game, but that they intended it all along to be a single strike? If so, that seems like quite a bit of a stretch -- I can't see any evidence of this mechanic and you would just be guessing at the developers intentions. What about all the other special attacks in the game -- paladin smites, monk elemental strikes, etc...? Are those supposed to be single shots as well?

It was. Touch of Death only applied to a single attack, no matter when it was activated in the chain.
If it was intended to proc on an off hand attack when it was developed, then why was this true?

U5 and the change to the way that off hand weapons proc changed all of that. That doesn't suddenly mean that it was intended to work on two hands, but simply that the new mechanics allowed it to.

The change in U7 shows that it's too powerful for both hands with the new mechanic, hence the half damage save.

[Drakos]

No need to get ****y with Drakos.
You claimed I was wrong. That's fine. Prove to me that I'm wrong with a link and I'll gladly admit it.

Thanks for the concern, but I've come to expect this type of treatment from him.

As I said, I do remember him saying it would potentially multi-strike on off-hand and double-strike procs, but not for the purpose to shore up their DPS vs. other melee types.

[Drakos]

The double strike mechanic was introduced to offset some of the attack speed loss.
I'll wait until you get home from work to find that link.

Correct, Eladrin did say that. But it wasn't in reference to monk attacks, it was a general reasoning for the addition od double-strike.

[Drakos]

but at least my post was accurate

Still waiting on the link to make that call.

[Calebro]

Thanks for the concern, but I've come to expect this type of treatment from him.

As I said, I do remember him saying it would potentially multi-strike on off-hand and double-strike procs, but not for the purpose to shore up their DPS vs. other melee types.

Yes, I remember that as well.
But the argument is that it was intended. This argument is incorrect. It wasn't intended. It was a byproduct of the new mechanics, and admitted to be working that way once U5 went live. But it was never intended from initial development, nor from some attempt to balance the loss of attack speed.

There is a difference between Eladrin stating how it would begin to work under the new mechanics, and Eladrin stating what was intended.
If we want to divine what was intended, we need to look at the original release, which was no secondary procs.

[Khurse]

It was. Touch of Death only applied to a single attack, no matter when it was activated in the chain.
If it was intended to proc on an off hand attack when it was developed, then why was this true?

U5 and the change to the way that off hand weapons proc changed all of that. That doesn't suddenly mean that it was intended to work on two hands, but simply that the new mechanics allowed it to..

...They said TOD now works with double strikes,there's a post where Eladrin or tarrant gives the approximate percentages you should have one strike,two strikes,or three strikes. How would this possibly not be working as intended?
The fact that it could proc up to 5 times definitely was not WAI,and should have been fixed, but to say it wasn't ever supposed to work more than once is incorrect.

[Calebro]

...They said TOD now works with double strikes,there's a post where Eladrin or tarrant gives the approximate percentages you should have one strike,two strikes,or three strikes. How would this possibly not be working as intended?
The fact that it could proc up to 5 times definitely was not WAI,and should have been fixed, but to say it wasn't ever supposed to work more than once is incorrect.

You missed my edit:
There is a difference between Eladrin stating how it would begin to work under the new mechanics, and Eladrin stating what was intended.
If we want to divine what was intended, we need to look at the original release, which was no secondary procs.

[Varr]

From what I heard, the ninja three graphics are holing it up.....

On a confirmed crit, "a Ninja 3 will rip out his enemies heart and hold it in his hand as it explodes in fire" Indiana Jones and the temple of dooooooom style.

The holding up the heart is glitchy.....true story.

[Weeday]

...They said TOD now works with double strikes,there's a post where Eladrin or tarrant gives the approximate percentages you should have one strike,two strikes,or three strikes. How would this possibly not be working as intended?
The fact that it could proc up to 5 times definitely was not WAI,and should have been fixed, but to say it wasn't ever supposed to work more than once is incorrect.

He's speaking from the very beginning, when Touch of Death was first introduced as a Monk ability. At that point, it was not intended to work with the off-hand as a double attack as it does now. He knows full well that it now works that way and is intended to work that way, but from the very beginning, it was meant as a singular strike for a Dark Monk.


Back on topic though.

Even with the new change to Touch of Death, I really don't feel Dark Monk's are going to ever fall behind that of the Light Monk. Touch of Death is not the only thing the Dark Path has going for it. With the first two stages of the PrE, you get Shadow Fade, Sneak Attack Damage, and a neat water-walking ability (albeit, useless on most occasions, but still very neat and unique). And not to mention, Touch of Death is not disappearing.

[Jay203]

now you guys know why i refrained myself from commenting on the OP?

[Calebro]

He's speaking from the very beginning, when Touch of Death was first introduced as a Monk ability. At that point, it was not intended to work with the off-hand as a double attack as it does now. He knows full well that it now works that way and is intended to work that way, but from the very beginning, it was meant as a singular strike for a Dark Monk.

Wrong.
I know full well that it now works that way.
I do not concede that it was intended to work that way.

[KoboldKiller]

He's speaking from the very beginning, when Touch of Death was first introduced as a Monk ability. At that point, it was not intended to work with the off-hand as a double attack as it does now. He knows full well that it now works that way and is intended to work that way, but from the very beginning, it was meant as a singular strike for a Dark Monk.


Back on topic though.

Even with the new change to Touch of Death, I really don't feel Dark Monk's are going to ever fall behind that of the Light Monk. Touch of Death is not the only thing the Dark Path has going for it. With the first two stages of the PrE, you get Shadow Fade, Sneak Attack Damage, and a neat water-walking ability (albeit, useless on most occasions, but still very neat and unique). And not to mention, Touch of Death is not disappearing.

Try using it on a construct, undead or ANYTHING with deathward and tell me it didn't disappear.

[Fomori]

...They said TOD now works with double strikes,there's a post where Eladrin or tarrant gives the approximate percentages you should have one strike,two strikes,or three strikes. How would this possibly not be working as intended?

In the new archmage line it was said that metamagic feats apply to the spells taken with spell mastery. It was also said that while this is how it functions because of the way spells currently exist, they didnt like it, and were looking at it.

That means that they can have someone that is not working as intended but still need to explain how it works within the current environment.

[Calebro]

Change it back to Piercing, keep the new save.
Balance issues solved, enemies being immune solved.

[Weeday]

Try using it on a construct, undead or ANYTHING with deathward and tell me it didn't disappear.

It's limited, not gone.

[Drfirewater79]

Firewater, werent you the one creating thread after thread about shintao being bunk and not playable a short while ago? Something about being careful what we wish for comes to mind. At least you got that silver DR bypass you wanted.

Its true ... and with silver dr bypass they moved right on up ... now force burst greater bane wraps holy burst tod ring and shocking burst tod ring ... plus healing and smites ... now they flip flopped and destroyed Dark monk ..

I am with you they should have left TOD alone and changed it to be a tier III monk ability .. that way all these fake monks with 9 lvls of monk and ninja spy pre couldnt take advantage of it .. which is really the only reason to put a DC on it ...

cause fake monks will have a dc that is 11 points less then a real monk.