Touch of Death Change

[Cyr]

Several times, I've seen people say that the ToD change has rendered their build, "completely useless." I don't see how a change to one ability is going to destroy a character's power, unless the person creating said build knew that the ability was OP, or on the edge of it, and deliberately built the character to make use of that with no consideration whatsoever for anything else.

Nope. It's simple. You can easily break something that is not broken.

Examples include...

Rogue Sneak Attack suddenly requiring a save based upon your dex modifier (it's a rogue pre-req right!) would gut lots of rogue builds. Does that then mean that rogue sneak attack was OP?

It is decided that rangers no longer get feats from their class unless they meet the pre-reqs. This would effectively destroy some builds. Does that mean not having to have a dex of X and a pre-req feat for bow stuff is OP?

All spellcasters suddenly have their SP pools cut in half. I think you know the outrage this would cause. Does this mean that all casters had too much SP before and were OP because of it?

It is decided that the most used spells in the game must be overpowered because people use them more then other spells. The following spells are removed from the game heal, mass heal, wall of fire, reconstruct, blade barrier, haste, resists, blur, displacement, mass cure spells, and greater heriosm. Clerics would consider that pretty devastating. So would arcanes. Does that mean that all these spells were then over powered?

[Modinator0]

Okay, a lot of people aren't going to like this, but I have a question.

Several times, I've seen people say that the ToD change has rendered their build, "completely useless." I don't see how a change to one ability is going to destroy a character's power, unless the person creating said build knew that the ability was OP, or on the edge of it, and deliberately built the character to make use of that with no consideration whatsoever for anything else. Not trying to be a jerk, but...how does one change destroy dark monks entirely? I'm sure the ability wasn't ever intended to turn into the single option for a monk to do comparable (to other DPS) damage.

It doesn't completely kill them, but it puts them at enough of a disadvantage to lose out on spots in groups. TOD is the only useful ability dark monks get. Without TOD, a dark monk just has basic melee damage, which in most situations is significantly lower than that of another melee class.

[SINIBYTE]

Soo, my monk is apparently OP doing 500-1500, wondering what everyone thinks about my Sorcerer then...



BOOM! Spamming that every 6 seconds.

And my Sorc is pretty gimp...

[KoboldKiller]

It doesn't completely kill them, but it puts them at enough of a disadvantage to lose out on spots in groups. TOD is the only useful ability dark monks get. Without TOD, a dark monk just has basic melee damage, which in most situations is significantly lower than that of another melee class.

Sadly the proponents of the nerf refuse to understand this point. They have it in their head Dark Monks have these other great abilities to make up for it and it's just not true.

[KoboldKiller]

Soo, my monk is apparently OP doing 500-1500, wondering what everyone thinks about my Sorcerer then...



BOOM! Spamming that every 6 seconds.

And my Sorc is pretty gimp...

NERF!!!!!!!!!! NERF!!!!!!!!!!!! NERF!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Calebro]

OK, so I'm going to respond to this even though I said I was leaving.

Sadly the proponents of the nerf refuse to understand this point. They have it in their head Dark Monks have these other great abilities to make up for it and it's just not true.

Not true?

Just by being a monk, without spending a single AP, you get:
all 3 good saves
4 different situational stances
elemental strikes
evasion
a way to regain Ki when not in combat
a bonus to saves vs mind affecting effects
DR bypassing strikes
inherent featherfall-like effect
respectable ac
immunity to diseases
self healing
improved evasion
immunity to poison
abundant step
spell resistance
insta-kill
shadow walk spell
DR 10/epic

vs a fighters extra feats and a barb's fast movement, inconsequential DR and other cr*p not even worth naming....
And yet you all still think that a Monk should have comparable DPS with these guys?

Why not just remove Fighters and Barbs from the game, raise a monk's hit die to a d10, and be done with it?

[Modinator0]

OK, so I'm going to respond to this even though I said I was leaving.


Not true?

Just by being a monk, without spending a single AP, you get:
all 3 good saves
4 different situational stances
elemental strikes
evasion
a way to regain Ki when not in combat
a bonus to saves vs mind affecting effects
DR bypassing strikes
inherent featherfall-like effect
respectable ac
immunity to diseases
self healing
improved evasion
immunity to poison
abundant step
spell resistance
insta-kill
shadow walk spell
DR 10/epic

vs a fighters extra feats and a barb's fast movement, inconsequential DR and other cr*p not even worth naming....
And yet you all still think that a Monk should have comparable DPS with these guys?

Why not just remove Fighters and Barbs from the game, raise a monk's hit die to a d10, and be done with it?

out of all that the only thing thats secured me a spot in a group over having more dps and more hp, is abundant step. and thats only on the twilight forge.Almost everything else you've listed can be granted to higher dps classes by a caster, scrolls, or potions, and are usually cast en-masse anyway so having a monk along doesn't help any. Imporoved evasion is the only useful really useful thing in groups, and I'd say that is balanced by the significantly lower HP.
And I dunno, but when I'm a DPS, I've yet to find a situation where I'd want anything but wind stance.


Why not just remove monks and give fighters abundant step? Or wait, actually, FvS already have it.

[Mobeius]

out of all that the only thing thats secured me a spot in a group over having more dps and more hp, is abundant step. and thats only on the twilight forge.Almost everything else you've listed can be granted to higher dps classes by a caster, scrolls, or potions, and are usually cast en-masse anyway so having a monk along doesn't help any. Imporoved evasion is the only useful really useful thing in groups, and I'd say that is balanced by the significantly lower HP.

Actually I use abundent step all the time, its awesome. I use it for, but not specifcally limited to, Abbott raids. Closing that distance after he ports rocks. Other uses its a silent ability, which has great uses as well.

[Modinator0]

Actually I use abundent step all the time, its awesome. I use it for, but not specifcally limited to, Abbott raids. Closing that distance after he ports rocks. Other uses its a silent ability, which has great uses as well.

Don't get me wrong, its a useful ability, but it doesn't get you group spots. raid leaders don't post "looking for abundant stepper", they post "looking for high dps"

[KoboldKiller]

OK, so I'm going to respond to this even though I said I was leaving.


Not true?

Just by being a monk, without spending a single AP, you get:
all 3 good saves
4 different situational stances
elemental strikes
evasion
a way to regain Ki when not in combat
a bonus to saves vs mind affecting effects
DR bypassing strikes
inherent featherfall-like effect
respectable ac
immunity to diseases
self healing
improved evasion
immunity to poison
abundant step
spell resistance
insta-kill
shadow walk spell
DR 10/epic

vs a fighters extra feats and a barb's fast movement, inconsequential DR and other cr*p not even worth naming....
And yet you all still think that a Monk should have comparable DPS with these guys?

Why not just remove Fighters and Barbs from the game, raise a monk's hit die to a d10, and be done with it?

Yes and much of that list can be achieved with equipment or racial choice so not so special.

[maddmatt70]

This thread makes me wonder if many of these people posting in it actually play the game. Have any of you run with a well geared out knowledgeable dark monk at end game? They dominate the trash mobs and they do not even have the third tier of their pre. I mean it is silly just silly to see. If they had shoddy defense there would be some balance but their natural defense is far better then the other melee to boot.

I also had the pleasure of leveling up with a friend on his pure monk with my pure level 20 paladin. Guess who dominated in nearly all the quests while leveling up? It sure was not my left footed paladin.

The veteran monk players that I run with are in agreement that a nerf is in order. Eladrin is doing what is best for the game and if this is too much of a nerf they always have the third tr of the pre to make up some of the difference.

A ginormous thread on some class that is overpowered. Where is the paladin thread or how weaksauce all the three bard pres are or how clerics and fvs are just lousy healbots or how wizards cast slower then molasses?

Lousy hang your heads in shame you complainers.

[Mobeius]

This thread makes me wonder if many of these people posting in it actually play the game. Have any of you run with a well geared out knowledgeable dark monk at end game? They dominate the trash mobs and they do not even have the third tier of their pre. I mean it is silly just silly to see. If they had shoddy defense there would be some balance but their natural defense is far better then the other melee to boot.

I also had the pleasure of leveling up with a friend on his pure monk with my pure level 20 paladin. Guess who dominated in nearly all the quests while leveling up? It sure was not my left footed paladin.

The veteran monk players that I run with are in agreement that a nerf is in order. Eladrin is doing what is best for the game and if this is too much of a nerf they always have the third tr of the pre to make up some of the difference.

A ginormous thread on some class that is overpowered. Where is the paladin thread or how weaksauce all the three bard pres are or how clerics and fvs are just lousy healbots or how wizards cast slower then molasses?

Lousy hang your heads in shame you complainers.

QFT +1 rep

Exactly what I been arguing for two weeks, its about balance.

[Goldenadult79]

Lousy hang your heads in shame you complainers.

You should have just said this and been done with it. Any other point you may have will be overlooked due this insulting attitude.
Remember that you just came to this thread and complained.

[Modinator0]

This thread makes me wonder if many of these people posting in it actually play the game. Have any of you run with a well geared out knowledgeable dark monk at end game? They dominate the trash mobs and they do not even have the third tier of their pre. I mean it is silly just silly to see. If they had shoddy defense there would be some balance but their natural defense is far better then the other melee to boot.

I also had the pleasure of leveling up with a friend on his pure monk with my pure level 20 paladin. Guess who dominated in nearly all the quests while leveling up? It sure was not my left footed paladin.

The veteran monk players that I run with are in agreement that a nerf is in order. Eladrin is doing what is best for the game and if this is too much of a nerf they always have the third tr of the pre to make up some of the difference.

A ginormous thread on some class that is overpowered. Where is the paladin thread or how weaksauce all the three bard pres are or how clerics and fvs are just lousy healbots or how wizards cast slower then molasses?

Lousy hang your heads in shame you complainers.

yes, while leveling up monks are overpowered. In fact most of the people against this nerf would probably be fine with TOD damage scaling based on level. The problem is that at end game, monks are NOT overpowered at all. Grab your paladin an epic sword of shadows and if you're built right you'll out-dps any monk around.

[smatt]

This thread makes me wonder if many of these people posting in it actually play the game. Have any of you run with a well geared out knowledgeable dark monk at end game? They dominate the trash mobs and they do not even have the third tier of their pre. I mean it is silly just silly to see. If they had shoddy defense there would be some balance but their natural defense is far better then the other melee to boot.

I also had the pleasure of leveling up with a friend on his pure monk with my pure level 20 paladin. Guess who dominated in nearly all the quests while leveling up? It sure was not my left footed paladin.

The veteran monk players that I run with are in agreement that a nerf is in order. Eladrin is doing what is best for the game and if this is too much of a nerf they always have the third tr of the pre to make up some of the difference.

A ginormous thread on some class that is overpowered. Where is the paladin thread or how weaksauce all the three bard pres are or how clerics and fvs are just lousy healbots or how wizards cast slower then molasses?

Lousy hang your heads in shame you complainers.

**** you Matt... I hate when you force me to agree with you

[Lifespawn]

Damage control ate my post. Nice to see my thoughts buried amidst trolling and namecalling now... :/

thats ok i have a full screen of neg reps for me atleast you can't get neg on a post thats not there anymore

[SINIBYTE]

thats ok i have a full screen of neg reps for me atleast you can't get neg on a post thats not there anymore

The whole neg rep thing is stupid to begin with, I've always been a fan of praise in public, reprimand in private, while encouraging positive behaviour. Besides it's enough keystrokes and clicking just keeping up with the misinformation that needs continual correcting around here...

[Lifespawn]

This thread makes me wonder if many of these people posting in it actually play the game. Have any of you run with a well geared out knowledgeable dark monk at end game? They dominate the trash mobs and they do not even have the third tier of their pre. I mean it is silly just silly to see. If they had shoddy defense there would be some balance but their natural defense is far better then the other melee to boot.

I also had the pleasure of leveling up with a friend on his pure monk with my pure level 20 paladin. Guess who dominated in nearly all the quests while leveling up? It sure was not my left footed paladin.

The veteran monk players that I run with are in agreement that a nerf is in order. Eladrin is doing what is best for the game and if this is too much of a nerf they always have the third tr of the pre to make up some of the difference.

A ginormous thread on some class that is overpowered. Where is the paladin thread or how weaksauce all the three bard pres are or how clerics and fvs are just lousy healbots or how wizards cast slower then molasses?

Lousy hang your heads in shame you complainers.

Seriously run some dps numbers and then come back monks with 2-3x proc every 15 seconds are STILL NOT top end dps they might be top of the middle of the pack with excessive chaining of strikes and unlimited ki.


All people see is wow 1 hit that guy can do 1000 damage 11!!11!! nerf it .

[Clay]

QFT +1 rep

Exactly what I been arguing for two weeks, its about balance.

Sorry to disagree with you...

That is NOT what you have been arguing. If you had there would not be such a battle of personalities. You are aware that once you state your position in a debate, restating it over and over does not actually prove your point better. A reasonable argument will stand on its own legs.

You have been arguing as if you are the authority on DDO game design and how characters should be made and played. X is a primary DPS, Y is a support blah blah blah. Z is the proper way to build a monk. The real strength of this MMO is the vast variety. The developers are tasked with the Sisyphean task of balancing the game. The developers. All of our opinions are just that, opinions--yours included.

All of the people getting into the battle of personalities are not furthering any argument. And "he started it, I am just defending my self" are not valid justifications.

Having several monk characters but being unable to get over to Lammania, I am very interested in summaries of IN GAME experiences of how these changes will affect me. It is interesting to read other opinions as to alternate ways to achieve balance. It is wearying reading the trolling, narcissistic posts that permeate this thread to try and find the ones that actually make a supported argument that is informative and not belittling or insulting to someone who deigns to have a different opinion.

[Nevthial]

The change to ToD doesn't affect my Monk as much as others, so being selfish, it doesn't bother me.
However, the change does affect the possible build choices for my Monk brothers and sisters, this DOES bother me.

I will say this however: I run almost exclusively with another Dark Monk, a WF THF Barb, and an Exploiter TWF khopesh user when I play my own Dark Monk. Guess which two characters are more often than not nearly tied in kills ? My barb buddy who stays frenzied and raged always and our exploiter friend slamming away with khopeshes?
Nope, a Str/Wis Dark Monk and a Dex/Wis Dark Monk. Our friends do massive crits yet we hardly even use ToD unless fighting a boss or showing off, and we out kill and survive more than they do. Something was/is skewed as I can't believe we're that much better players.