Human Versatility – not nearly as versatile as Half-Elf Dilettante

[Jahmin]

Dear Eladrin
It has been over a year since my last post on this hopeless topic, but while I was here for a completely unrelated matter anyway I figured I would take a moment to catch up. Imagine my surprise, amazement and disappointment with the new Half-Elf Dilettante feats.

What a great concept – they look/sound AMAZING! My pleasant surprise however, quickly turned to disappointment since they are so significantly better than Human Versatility.

When we last spoke on the HV issue it was said that great plans were in the works for improving Human Versatility, is this still the case? Is there a likely timeframe involved?

By allowing the Human Versatility boost to qualify as a required PrE class boost, Humans would actually gain a bit of versatility (and better bang for their AP as it were). Currently six PrEs have class boost requirements that could be mirrored by Human Versatility:

Frenzied Berserker (Damage Boost)
Kensai (Attack Boost)
Stalwart Defender (Armor Class Boost)
Defender of Siberys (Armor Class Boost)
Assassin (Damage Boost)
Mechanic (Skills Boost)

Thief-Acrobat (Haste Boost) is currently not mirrored by HV, but the substitution could still be allowed.


Now from other posts we know that currently PrEs can only have a single optional list requirement and that Enhancement Skills are being combined rather than separated by class. Merely allowing HV to sub in for class boosts would only immediately help Frenzied Berserker and Assassin (and possibly Thief-Acrobat if HV-Haste boost added), but would still nevertheless be a worthwhile step in the right direction!

However, perhaps as an alternative suggestion in order to circumvent the PrE limitation, could HV not be coded into the Enhancement list as having boosts by the required names rather than HV-AC, HV-Atk, HV-Dam, HV-Saves, HV-Skills? Or simply list HV as all boosts?

Another possible benefit of this change could be the easier implementation of Racial PrEs:

Give Dwarves Dwarf AC boost and Dwarf Intim and suddenly they can qualify under the current rules… Same for Drow/Warforged allowing access to Assassin/Frenzied Berserker while we await Scorpion Wraith/Juggernaut.


As the Enhancement boosts are the closest to the real use of AP, it would nice to see Human Versatility get the boost it has long deserved. If not, it is likely that it will be grossly (and unfairly) overshadowed by Half-Elven dabblers…

Clearly this is impractical for immediate inclusion, but even just knowing it is being progressively worked on is a start in prevent us from mixing with Elven blood. Thanks and keep up the great work!


J-

[orochinaga]

You forgot that humans earn a free feat and more skill points...

So neither of humans nor half elves are better, they are just different.

[BlackRage]

You forgot that humans earn a free feat and more skill points...

So neither of humans nor half elves are better, they are just different.

Pretty sure he did not since it is irrelevant. The feat and skills come no where near making up the difference. The races were already balanced - Turbine added the Enhancement system, and it is this added system that is not properly balanced.

One only needs to do a quick forum search to see that the Human Versatility nerf has been asked to be looked at numerous times, and as he demonstrates the Half-Elf gets a WAY better deal with Dilettante than Humans do with (non) Versatility

[Blamegilligan]

Bump and a nod of general assent. I just began the game last month and became a VIP this month. I rolled a human rogue, and was very impressed when I discovered that human versatility can do all the things that those other enhancements do for the price of 1. It seemed like a fair trade-off for lacking any of the bonuses the other races get.

Then I learned about the prestige enhancement classes, and rather thought the assassin sounded nice. So imagine my disappointment when I did some research and learned that my human versatility chain of enhancements is worthless (utterly worthless) in helping me achieve the prestige that I want. But why I ask? It DOES meet the requirement - it produces the same effect. And at suggestions to double up on damage boosts I scoff.

One should be enough, and besides, each activation takes you out of the action, which spells death for a DPS rogue who survives by killing quickly and efficiently, not to mention that the double effect would not be synced and precious seconds of my first damage bonus would be lost in the pause. Lastly, and most importantly, training two lines of boost enhancements like that is far too expensive. I would have no points left for anything else - it'd be akin to self mutilation.

Now, with the addition of half-elves, it appears that humans have lost all their edge whatsoever, since this new player race can do everything that they can do, and do it better, and are granted a nice phat sliver of that elf pie too. Whats wrong with a little love for humans? Who has decided that we, the creators, the real gods behind the scene of it all, are to be inferior to every other player race? But I digress.... Lets see some balancing action take place here please, before I get fed up with the inequity and move on to another game. Certainly Jahmin's suggestion is a good place to begin.

[QuantumFX]

I was kinda disappointed that they gave Half-orcs an extra action boost chain and left humans out. Would have been nice to see Human Versatility get a boost and then the half races each get a portion of it.

[Emili]

I think it would be a good idea for them to look into HV and do something with it in this area. They have a number of PrE's where you may take x or y in feats/enhancements for a pre-req and I see no reason why they cannot add HV to said lists.

Good example is http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=58

Everyone who argues for Human barbs always go for the healing amp and being able to get both toughness and stunning blow- argument, which is valid. What they never seem to take in to calcs, however, is that humans do not get Tactics enhancements to improve that stunning blow.
My stunning blow with full tactics on a WF barb is at ~50, if you had a human with the exact same build gear as my barb you'd have 3 less, and everyone knows that stunning blow isn't worth a dang if you can't be a stunner in epics and with a ~47 stunning blow you're not stunning that well. Since everything else dies to fast, things that don't die fast in non epics are not stunnable anyway.

[Now, how many times did I say Stun]

/Ali

In many ways the basic race - human - is shoved aside due to the enhancement system. To allow veristilty as sub for PrE would allow such things as the extra feat "stunning blow" in the case above not be compromised as much because those few free AP could possibly be utilized to reinforce it via more points into a higher tier of class tactical possibly? Maybe not ... but point in hand is we've less and less to support DC, DPS, or any attributes to any significant gains and the base racial attributes -extra feat and extra skill points fall off into less useful if not ineffective. Versatilty is really not the Human forte in today's DDO.

In this day and age when H-orc is stronger (more tactical), Dwarf and WF still more tactical and sturdier and healing amp available on many multiple items the melee human is even harder pressed to find equilibrium in presenting any bearing in use of the extra feat and make it account for something ... it does indeed become more passée.

The other enhancements a point in two stats vs two in one is not as significant given today's ship buffs, profane bonus', epic items ... and healing amp all over items also presents the healing amp enhancements as more... umm, meh, given that amp may be applied to epic items and so many varrying items also have stacking amp...

Fact is human's have less and less of what they may call their own... HV as an enhancement accounts for really nothing in actual game play it is not versatility at all but often viewed upon as a detriment.

With the last few updates and mods human has not kept it's reputation as being "The most adaptable, flexible and ambitious of the Eberron races." but is slowly gaining the reputation of being the most mediocre.