DC vs. Spell Pen question

[phalaeo]

When I TR'ed into a Clonk, the build that I was following said to take both Spell Pen. Feats and all three tiers of Spell Pen Enhancements. The author of the thread explained that while Clonks can have splashy DCs due to Ocean Stance (+2 stacking WIS), their spells often fail due to low Spell Pen.

I made other changes in the build, but kept that suggestion- never questioned it.

(For reference, she is Raid Geared, with a Capped WIS of 40. Gear includes Highest Spell Pen value, Dreamspitter for Enchantment DCs, Napkin..)

After a few months of playing her capped, I was not satisfied with how her offensive casting was performing, so I decided to make a change- Swap out the Greater Spell Pen feat for Heighten. This has made a ginormous difference- tried 5 different spells and they worked as I wanted approximately 95% of the casts. (Spells experimented on were Cometfall, Blade Barrier, Destruction, Hold Person, Greater Command). Huge jump in performance.

1. How much Spell Pen is needed for a pure Cleric? For an 18/2 multi?

2. I have read posts where the OP is asked what their Spell Pen is- Is this somewhere on the Character Sheet or is it a paper calculation? How do I calculate it?

3. Are there certain benchmarks for acceptable DCs on a capped Cleric? Most of my DCs are low 30s without Heighten and jump to as high as 37 with Heighten and a Dreamspitter (only applies to Enchantment spells). I do not have room for spell focus feats on this build, unfortunately.

As mentioned above, I can see the difference of how this works in game, I just don't understand what finite values to strive for (at the High end) and what threshold (at the lower end) where Spell Pen and DCs are unacceptable for offensive casting.

[The_Great_Samulas]

1) It depends on your capabilities as a cleric. High spell resistance mobs have other weaknesses you can exploit. I take the tact of building my cleric such that he can attack any weakness and exploit it. If you go strictly offensive casting you have to rely upon upon multiple casting and highest spell penetration and highest DCs to accomplish your goals (and even this doesn't work all that well). As an 18/2 you are going to need one more feat to be on par with a pure. I find one of the spell penetration feats with two levels of enhancements gives acceptable results. I in general rely more upon DCs than spell pen, i.e. I would take heighen way before the second spell penetration feat. Watch out with heighten - it ups the cost of your heal spell too!

2) It is a paper calculation that appears in your combat log when you attempt to break SR.

3) As an offensive caster, DCs are everything. It doesn't matter what your spell pen is if you can't get them to fail saves. Not everything has spell resistance. Alot does of course at cap, but you do have spells where SR doesn't matter - like bladebarrier, like cometfall, like harm. And I haven't found SR to be that useful against my epic Unkor's cleaver. I find that intelligent use of the appropriate spell type vs. a mob combined with a max wisdom is sufficient for good results.

The idea of going so far into spell pen that you said was recommended in that build is for intermediate players. I would definately not go that route as an advanced player. I would take one spell pen feat and all three enhancements if you can swing the action point cost. Of course, this build would be greatly enhanced by a past life as a wizard (as long as we are talking advanced play).

[Rawum]

Spell Penetration calculation is:

1d20 + Caster level + Items + Feats + Enhancements

[rest]

Spell pen is the reason my clonk (currently level 8) took a wizard past life to go with his cleric past life. I would never gimp DC in favor of 'ultimate' spell pen. When he was a straight up cleric, his spell pen was 1 feat and maybe 2 enhancements coupled with the abbot staff and he got through the majority of the time.

[phalaeo]

Thank you everyone!

The answer for my Cleric is one Sp. Pen feat and two Enhancements, along with Heighten. Been testing for a few days now and I'm much happier with the results- also finally understanding the finesse of balancing what is really needed.

And look!
Happy times.

[twix]

Couldn't imagine playing an offensive caster of any kind without heighten.Not having heighten kinda negates the purpose of an offensive casting based toon. At least that's my two cents.

[phalaeo]

Couldn't imagine playing an offensive caster of any kind without heighten.Not having heighten kinda negates the purpose of an offensive casting based toon. At least that's my two cents.

Oh, I see that now- it's just that the build I based off of was ADAMANT in EXPLICIT language that both Pen feats were totally needed. Took me a while to give it a second thought and I'm glad I did.

[rest]

I'd die without heighten. It's absolutely essential IMHO.