should i put 1 lvl at rogue class? + few other questions

[deadalus_29]

hello.
i wanted to know if i should or shouldn't throw 1 lvl at rogue class for my heal/caster cleric.

pros:
6 bonus skill points
open locks (for the occasional soloing i will do).
UDM as a class skill (being twice as effective at spending skill points)
sneak attack (effectively +3 dmg )



cons :
loss of some SP (how much sp do i exactly loss as i dont get lvl 20 cleric?)
loss of the lvl 20 enchantment (is it really that good)
less spell penetration/spell damage for not reaching lvl 20 (is it really matters?)

did i missed something? should i do it?
i'm human cleric with no dex bonus

i have some other noob question:
there are 2 "follower" enchantments (the silver flame/sovereign host)
can i choose both or choosing one of them deny me from choosing the other?
do i get the "spell" that give me proficiency with the weapon (longbow/longsword) as well or do i need to invest more action points?
should i spend 2 action point on the one that gives me +1 to longswords? the damage is same as morningstars/heavimace. however, do you think that longswords tend to be more magically powerful then bludgeon weapons? (i mean does the chances to get +5 longsword are greater then the chance to get +5 heavy mace?)

thanks for answering.

[JustWinBaby]

As a cleric? No. No way you should splash into Rogue. Stay pure imo.

[Renvar]

I'm not sure that "no way" is a good assessment, but it is definitely something to research first.

Splashing 1 or 2 levels of rogue, monk, or fighter on a cleric is an OK practice, if done well.

As far as 1 or 2 rogue goes:

2 levels is generally better than 1 as you get evasion as well, and more skill points to keep UMD and OL/DD/whatever you want maxed.

Make sure you have enough skill points to max umd and concentration. You might need to be human or add an extra build point or two to INT to make that happen. OL does not need to be maxed. With good gear and buffs, you should be able to open most any lock with about 10-12 ranks at end game.

If you go with 2 levels to get evasion, make sure you focus enough build points in dex and/or other after creation focus on reflex save to make it useful. Evasion does almost nothing if you have a 5 reflex save.

You will become a bit more multifunctional, but it will cost you in following areas:

Slower spell progression while leveling. You will be getting spells a level or two late. That can be annoying for some key ones (Heal, Raise Dead, BB, FoM for example). By cap the loss of one or two levels is virtually meaningless on spell slots. FvS get by with less.

Less spell points. Probably around 70-80 less per splash level, would be my guess. It's non-scientific, but most pure clerics have around 1800ish from base + feats + enhancements + wis bonuses. (No items included)

Your ability to land your CC/Instadeath spells will be impacted in Amrath, Refuge, Dreaming Dark, Epics. You will only use BB, Comet Fall, Meteor Swarm, Searing Light (your damage spells) effectively at end game.

I would advise against a rogue splash unless you look to incorporate all aspects of your build. I personally prefer the monk splash for better synergy, but that doesn't give UMD or OL/DD type skills.

As to your other questions:

You can only choose one path between the silver flame and soverign host.

The proficiency comes with the selection, but you can spend AP as well to get extra capabilities.

Longswords are more common, but not necessarily better. If melee is not a goal of the build and you are not going to spec for some melee capability in the build, I would not waste time on the enhancements. (By this I mean, splash in some fighter, monk, or rogue and take 3-4 feats for melee such as Imp. Critical, Weapon Focus, THF, TWF, etc.)

[Spoonwelder]

Yup - Rogue 2 or none for evasion primarily - better Monk 2 for evasion and the Wis AC bonus....also there isn't that much content that absolutely requires a rogue ability or you will fail. In those cases PUG a rogue or grab a guildie rogue.

Evasion is why most people go monk or rogue-splash. That is usually enough to make up for the loss of capstone and spell penetration. It changes your build fairly drastically and as such isn't recommended unless you have a great plan for it. That said evasion is better suited for a character that will be in the line of fire of AOE spells. If you are going to be a stand-back and heal/cast type then it is of less importance to you.

You can do anything you want, but if you are building a soloer then you would be better with Fighter for 2 levels. Again due to the dearth of anything important that requires Rogue skills.

If you are just trying to do something different for the hell of it....then have at 'er and let us know how it goes. Fun/not fun? Easier/Harder? Did more or less than you thought it would?

[JollySwagMan]

Splashing Rogue doesn't help out your spellcasting much, but may be of more benefit to a melee oriented build. eg. a Radiant Intimitank.

However I would more readily recommend Monk, because I think extra Wis/feats compare favourably with extra skills when justifying the loss of a spell level.

[donfilibuster]

Two things to note.

First, if you get the rogue level at first level you get the extra skill points which mean a permanent +4 that you can only get at character creation.

Second, you delay your new spells by one (or two) levels, it might not be a big deal but you have to keep it in mind for your game plan.

As for splashing rogue on a cleric, they have wis for spot and find traps spell for search, thats how u fix that class mix.

[googatron]

the only other class a cleric should ever multiclass with is a monk... and maybe 1 level of fighter for proficiencies... NEVER anything else.

[DToNE]

If you're going to do it, add rogue at level 1. This will allow you to add skill points in otherwise ignored areas like Jump and tumble that you will not get another chance to skill up if rogue was taken later.

Longswords are also preferred over maces mostly due to their crit range and weapon availability. Note that you cannot get vorpal bludgeoning weapons otherwise.

Despite what other people say, Concentration is OPTIONAL if you decide to take up Quicken Feat (which you should anyways). At higher levels, quicken is pretty much on 100% of the time other than when having to buff. Unless dead, forcefully incapacitated (like being tripped/stunned), or some stupid action (like climbing up a ledge), you won't get interrupted mid-cast with Quicken on, so you lose the main point of concentration after a while.

The loss of SP is also dependent on how you built your character. My SP vs a full decked out Casting Cleric is about 500~1000? But by not being the SP dependent type, our SP percentage drops at relatively the same rate.

Divine Intervention is a great tool. Still, it's usage is very situational. There's not many critical points where it's necessary, and when it is only ONE person needs to have it.

If you're worried about spell penetration and spell damage, you shouldn't be taking the rogue level and stick to pure caster type.


The rogue level is definitely for the Melee Oriented cleric type. It's 15% haste action boost, potentially +2 Damage boost, 1d6+3 damage sneak attack, Evasion at level 2, slight skill boost, and a few other random goodies.

So THUMBS UP if you're a melee type.
THUMBS DOWN if you're a caster type.

Ah, I'd like to also add, if you have considerable intelligence and are a human, you're capable of handling Epic Traps quite fine by the time you reach 20.

[Renvar]

the only other class a cleric should ever multiclass with is a monk... and maybe 1 level of fighter for proficiencies... NEVER anything else.

I disagree with this opinion. There are many great options for combining classes with Cleric. Monk, Rogue, Bard, Pally, Fighter all can work, depending on your build goals. The monk is just a splash that adds value while preserving most of the "Traditional" cleric role.

There is nothing wrong with thinking outside the box. And NEVER is an awfully long time.

[azrael4h]

Clerics really don't get the skill points to benefit much from the Rogue splash, so if you put points into INT (and where are you taking them from?) you may get two, or three at best, skills out of it. In addition, Evasion isn't all that effective when you can't make the reflex saves to save your life. So points there into DEX. Again, where are you sacrificing those points from?

Casters benefit the most by going pure, though it is possible to build an effective character with a MC'd caster. It's definitely not the easy route, and there are always sacrifices.

[Satinavian]

I have a rogue splash on my cleric myself and it works as intended.

You sacrifice mostly SP and get new skills, skill points and sneak damage(not so important).

Extremly usefull for solo-capability where you don't need that much healing. Useless for the classic healbots. There are better dips for battleclerics.

One doesn't need DEX for a rogue level or two. Rog 2 gives +3 reflex saves (monks also). And you will need the other stats more.

[phalaeo]

the only other class a cleric should ever multiclass with is a monk... and maybe 1 level of fighter for proficiencies... NEVER anything else.

I didn't know that you roll and play my Clerics.