Half-Elves: Playability

[IronClan]

How about, this Lama cycle is all about getting feedback on the live event. That is what the Turbine Preview folks want and need.

Nercoing this thread distracting from that. Sure half elf feedback is always wanted but it would be better suited for the suggestion section of the live forum. Where the thread would not hamper the gathering of Lama feedback.

hmmm that's almost a little plausible as long as we don't consider how much "hampering" could possibly happen from clicking on a thread and backing out 3 seconds later. Still not the worst attempt to justify I've read... but I hardly think the outraged were taking the Devs Precious seconds into mind

[Creeper]

-- Overall balance against other races: They would make me want to TR all my halflings if they didn't look so much like they were wearing Michelle Pfeiffer masks; the males that is.

-- Combat animations: Same as humans unless you are looking at their hideous faces.

-- Overall power of the race: I can't think of a reason to roll a dwarf or a halfling anymore.

-- Racial Enhancements: Good stuff.

-- Dragonmarks: Useless waste of feats; IE. on par with other Races Dragonmarks.

After playing them, what is your overall opinion of half-elves: Their faces look like a cross between Mickey Mouse in Steamboat Willie, Pinocchio after extensive plastic surgery, and the first Simpsons cartoon--this is not a good thing.

Any comments you'd like to make: I don't like looking at them...

[IronClan]

-- Overall power of the race: I can't think of a reason to roll a dwarf or a halfling anymore.

whaaaa? I can't think of one class a Helf would be good at that either of those two races can't do better at... let alone all of them.

[Desteria]

whaaaa? I can't think of one class a Helf would be good at that either of those two races can't do better at... let alone all of them.

Your joiking right, lets take hafling any melee build that does not have rouge levels, perfeable twf sicne they have the dex needed fri delitant already then...
Hafling guile/cunning +4 to hit +8 damage for what 20 AP's
Half elf +3d6 sneak for 6 Ap's averages 10.5 damage, yes no bonus to hit BUT your getitng sneak so you already get +2 flanking and your sneak item to hit bonus at that poitn no oen should be missing, and talking epics, where stuf fis held to give you the sneak your auto hit any way.

Or levelign up any melee on a TR toon and sick of the horrable level of pugs now a days when your experanced and want to run quest fast and hard, take enough wis for and take celric delitant fro wands/heal scrolls to make you more self suficent much sooner then umd can do it, LR at 20 to get your final stats/rouge delitant.

Half elves are great, males look like **** but other wise a nice strong race on par with the other striong races fro a LOT of builds.

[IronClan]

Your joiking right, lets take hafling any melee build that does not have rouge levels, perfeable twf sicne they have the dex needed fri delitant already then...
Hafling guile/cunning +4 to hit +8 damage for what 20 AP's
Half elf +3d6 sneak for 6 Ap's averages 10.5 damage, yes no bonus to hit BUT your getitng sneak so you already get +2 flanking and your sneak item to hit bonus at that poitn no oen should be missing, and talking epics, where stuf fis held to give you the sneak your auto hit any way.

I admit I left myself open to this by responding to Creepers absolutist statement with my own opposing absolutist statement. Perhaps I should have said: if you can't think of "a reason" you must not be trying to

Your example is mostly an unfair comparison, because you're adding in the second line of to-hit bonuses to the AP total and then go on to discount to hit bonuses as irrelevant. So is Rogue Dili for 6 AP's a better deal than Halfling Guile at 10 AP's yes, but this just goes to prove that Halfling enhancement lines are pretty outdated and need to be looked over.

Of course this ignores that halflings can get that guile and some pretty good self healing, and saves bonuses, Hero's companion, extra dex, which are several nice things that make them great rogues, monks, healers or self sufficient pajama AC builds as well.

In the end the proof is in the pudding, Helfs are so good that you see one every once in a while in a pug, meanwhile there's 2-3 Dwarves and Halflings in just about every pug I join, along with a Horc or two, and the usual assortment of elfs and humans and WF.

To me Dili's are just a way to get part of what makes a splash powerful without getting MOST of the best benefits of a splash. Yes they can be useful to keep your capstone while getting a small amount of versatility. But again you're still missing out on most of what makes those splashes attractive to a build (to recaps that's class skills in UMD/intimi, lots of Skills that can actually make your character more enjoyable to play (like 4 spot so you don't literally slam into an enemy before you see them) feats, evasion, full wis to AC, and several useful first tier or early level enhancements).

I will also admit that when they either buff the race somewhat (adding Bastard Sword racial pref would do it for me I don't know about anyone else) or maybe reduce the price and then have 50% off sale on top of it I would buy them. And I'd do it so I could come up with some wacky triple class with a dili that made it play almost like a quad classed character (or a 3.5 rules complex PrE class build).

[Aerendil]

Not sure if it's been bug reported already, but Fighter dile does not properly grant full martial weapon access: bows are still restricted for some reason and impose a non-proficiency penalty.


*edit*. Ahh, yep, you're right. Well-spotted Robi.
For the record, Fighter = free martial *melee* weapon access.

[Robi3.0]

Not sure if it's been bug reported already, but Fighter dile does not properly grant full martial weapon access: bows are still restricted for some reason and impose a non-proficiency penalty.

That is WAI fighter dil give martial melee weapon prof only. Ranger dil gives bow prof.

[hityawithastick]

Don't know about the stats, but the faces scare me.

[Desteria]

Well imo you dotn se eH-elf si pugs a smuch becuase:
1- you have to buy them/be a Vip
2- Lots of them are TRed toons with cleric Delitant(while leveling) adn they dont pug they solo or group with outher TRing friends
3- H-elfs are NEW the other races are not so only the newest toons can even Bee H-elfs
4- a LOT of ppl as obvious form response sin this thred don't understand how nice they are.
5- some ppl cant get over how horrable the males look

RE: hafling to hit stuff, only included it because you have to get it to get the damage ones.

yes haflign have other nice AP's but i have a haflign monk have for some time he will be becomign a h-elf soon because it will free up a lot of AP's before freiegn up thsoe AP's i cant aford any of the haflign other neat stuff as the cunning/guile takes so much
Also i;d argue that H-elfs have a lot of other nice AP optiosn as well, Healig amp, Mutiple racial stats including DEX like the haflings but with the optiosn to get say STR and CON!!!
H-elfs get acces to arcane archer elf PRC, see the halves angel build for a realyl good build that takes very specific advatage of this I've run with it in groups it;s amazing, and it;s not possible on any other race or at least nto at near the same DPS, and levign a tR at the same time the cleric delitant let him and me(barb) due everythign with ease.

All in all I know a LOT of people makign new chars or TRing in to h-elves and these are hard corse ppl that build soem of the better dps/all round solid toon on khyber so there must be siomethign godo with H-elves.

I admit I left myself open to this by responding to Creepers absolutist statement with my own opposing absolutist statement. Perhaps I should have said: if you can't think of "a reason" you must not be trying to

Your example is mostly an unfair comparison, because you're adding in the second line of to-hit bonuses to the AP total and then go on to discount to hit bonuses as irrelevant. So is Rogue Dili for 6 AP's a better deal than Halfling Guile at 10 AP's yes, but this just goes to prove that Halfling enhancement lines are pretty outdated and need to be looked over.

Of course this ignores that halflings can get that guile and some pretty good self healing, and saves bonuses, Hero's companion, extra dex, which are several nice things that make them great rogues, monks, healers or self sufficient pajama AC builds as well.

In the end the proof is in the pudding, Helfs are so good that you see one every once in a while in a pug, meanwhile there's 2-3 Dwarves and Halflings in just about every pug I join, along with a Horc or two, and the usual assortment of elfs and humans and WF.

To me Dili's are just a way to get part of what makes a splash powerful without getting MOST of the best benefits of a splash. Yes they can be useful to keep your capstone while getting a small amount of versatility. But again you're still missing out on most of what makes those splashes attractive to a build (to recaps that's class skills in UMD/intimi, lots of Skills that can actually make your character more enjoyable to play (like 4 spot so you don't literally slam into an enemy before you see them) feats, evasion, full wis to AC, and several useful first tier or early level enhancements).

I will also admit that when they either buff the race somewhat (adding Bastard Sword racial pref would do it for me I don't know about anyone else) or maybe reduce the price and then have 50% off sale on top of it I would buy them. And I'd do it so I could come up with some wacky triple class with a dili that made it play almost like a quad classed character (or a 3.5 rules complex PrE class build).

[hdogan]

Half-Elves: Graphically, worst designed race in DDO (fire your new designer). They rushed to make this race available (and half-orcs too). I'd never play with them, just for this reason.

[Ralmeth]

I'm leveling up a Half-Elf Pally Defender build to try them out. Though this is an old thread, I thought I'd add my thoughts so far:

#1 - Overall balance against other races:
Honestly, a Paladin is both feat and AP starved. So compared to playing a human, the loss of the bonus feat and having to spend APs on the HElf abilities makes human a better choice IMHO. The main thing that makes HElf nice on this build is the 2nd intimidate button.

#2 - Combat animations:
These seem fine.

#3 - Overall power of the race:
Same response as #1.

#4 - Racial Enhancements:
The stat enhancement is very nice and is helpful while leveling. As for the others, I just don't have the spare APs to buy too many of them. They would have to be really good or cost less to justify getting too many on a Pally.

#5 - Dragonmarks:
I'm not a big fan. My feats are so limited that these would have to be really darn good to want to spend a feat on them.

My Recommendation:
For each prestige class make a couple of good, viable Half-Elf Dilettante options that would mesh well with the class and prestige class.

As an example, from a Pally DoS perspective, you can't take full advantage of any of the dilettantes. For example, I'm currently using the Barbarian dil. The 1DR and the con enhancement are nice, but even if the DR enhancements were working I couldn't afford the APs, and the toughness enhancements don't stack with Pally toughness. Make the toughness enhancements stack and this alone would make this Dil worth taking.

Alternatively you could go Fighter...So the main feat gets me nothing but access to an armor enhancement that I have to spend APs and a LR on to take advantage (as I made my character before the new enhancements). Instead, for taking the Fighter Dil feat have it also grant you +1 max dex bonus to your armor. Then you could spend 2APs for another +1 and you've created a nice Dil feat that gets you +2 AC for a Pally tank and 1 extra strength. That would also be worth taking.

[IronClan]

Well imo you dotn se eH-elf si pugs a smuch becuase:
1- you have to buy them/be a Vip
2- Lots of them are TRed toons with cleric Delitant(while leveling) adn they dont pug they solo or group with outher TRing friends
3- H-elfs are NEW the other races are not so only the newest toons can even Bee H-elfs
4- a LOT of ppl as obvious form response sin this thred don't understand how nice they are.
5- some ppl cant get over how horrable the males look

1) you have to buy Horcs too why do you see copious Horcs in every pug?
2) lots of Horcs in pugs, are people who buy Helfs anti-social? I don't buy it.
3) Horcs are new too...
4) a lot of people here are died in the wool min maxers, I find 4) to be highly improbable
5) point granted, but the females look horrid as well... at least if a creepy brain dead vacuous stare in a female is ascetically displeasing to you.
6) Occam's razor

I like Occam's razor: Helfs are unpopular and unlike Horcs don't bring much exitement; Solo oriented players might like them.. but they probably like WF arcanes, and anything FvS's even better. Helfs are also unpopular due to looking really bad, and possibly because they were brought out at the same time as a class that is pure DPS min/max, in a game that is totally dominated by DPS.

[quijenoth]

1) you have to buy Horcs too why do you see copious Horcs in every pug?
2) lots of Horcs in pugs, are people who buy Helfs anti-social? I don't buy it.
[snip]
4) a lot of people here are died in the wool min maxers, I find 4) to be highly improbable

You answered you own question there. Since so many people are min-maxers (and to be honest thats really the only way to play DDO) MANY melee builds are switching to half-orcs be they barbarians, fighters, or Q-Tip monks!

I play almost exclusively in pug groups because my guild consists of 3 RL friends. and I have to agree that half-elves are becoming increasingly more common than all other races except half-orcs humans and drow. The most unusual group I've been in had 3 Half-orcs and 3 half-elves. Half-Elves for me personally now outnumber my other race choice. out of 8 I have 2 half-elves and plan on making my very first TR change from Drow to Half-elf.

The advantages of Half-elf lend themselves to some unique builds while still remaining true to their chosen class (nil or minimal multiclassing). now I dont see a great deal of Half-elves on shroud runs and that may have alot to do with the pug syndrome. half-elf builds are pretty advanced and getting one right does involve knowing the end game.

Oh and I dont care how my half-elves look TBH because all i ever see is the back on my toons head

[IronClan]

You answered you own question there.

Well of course I did, those were rhetorical questions.

I dont see a great deal of Half-elves on shroud runs and that may have alot to do with the pug syndrome. half-elf builds are pretty advanced and getting one right does involve knowing the end game.

Or alternately (and much more likely) there are just much fewer players running Helf characters

I'm not buying the "Helfs are for super-advanced elite players who know how to get them right at end game" narrative. This doesn't mean that I can't see, or dream up a nice niche character build that they would be good at: It means I think not very many people view those niches as so valuable it's worth spending 10 bucks on, when weighed against the things they don't like, and then weighed against whats also available to them competing against the Helf race.

So once again I repeat IMO: Helfs are unpopular and unlike Horcs don't bring much excitement; Solo oriented players might like them.. but they probably like WF arcanes, and anything FvS's even better. Helfs are also unpopular due to looking really bad, and possibly because they were brought out at the same time as a class that is pure DPS min/max, in a game that is totally dominated by DPS.

[yohoia]

I agree to this:

Half-Elves: Graphically, worst designed race in DDO (fire your new designer). They rushed to make this race available (and half-orcs too). I'd never play with them, just for this reason.

I have made two H-Es so far, but deleted them. I just could not stand the look of them (both females). At least give them something graphically appealing to make them stand out from other races: Crazy hair styles, access to all the "exclusive" hair colors, flashy make-up (I want color here!!), tattoos (you get the idea).
Maybe give them access to some of the exotic weapons as racial ones.
The dragon marks are of no use (but so are the other ones, except for halfling healing)

[Thar]

-- Overall balance against other races:
They don't have much of an advantage against other races. If the diltente feats (stats) would stack with all other bonuses this would help give them a boost.

-- Combat animations:
seem fine, the best is the emotes.

-- Overall power of the race:
Seems weak compared to human or elf.

-- Racial Enhancements:In absence of a weapon line as some races have (halfing throwing is now a line, seriously how much is it used), they need some other combat bonus.

-- Dragonmarks:
Seriously, people use dragonmarks? Those need a serious power upgrade themselves.


After playing them, what is your overall opinion of half-elves:
It's just a flavor class, nothing special about them, nothing that says they would make a great "x". They are good for a little multiclass bonus and i hear people like the cleric line to use healing scrolls.

The looks however are horrible. It looks like a human with an clay elf face that was punched in the face and flattened out. They look alien and just wrong. I keep my helmet model on as i don't want to see that.


Any comments you'd like to make:

they need a boost to do something well in combat.
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