pally/sorc build opinions

[jcmcminis]

can this be a viable 'end game' build?

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Paladin \ 18 Sorcerer) 
Hit Points: 184
Spell Points: 2115 
BAB: 11\11\16\21
Fortitude: 21
Reflex: 18
Will: 21

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             14                    14
Dexterity            10                    12
Constitution         12                    12
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma             20                    30

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               0                     1
Bluff                 5                    10
Concentration         5                    28
Diplomacy             5                    10
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                5                    10
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  0                     1
Intimidate            5                    10
Jump                  2                     2
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         0                     1
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                  n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                 -1                     1
Swim                  2                     2
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      7                    21.5

Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 3 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness
Spell (1): Niac's Cold Ray
Spell (1): Charm Person
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Force Manipulation I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded I


Level 4 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (1): Burning Hands
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Concentration I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Mastery I


Level 5 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (1): Acid Spray
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Heightening I


Level 6 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Spell (2): Blur
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Subtle Spellcasting I


Level 7 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (2): Melf's Acid Arrow
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded II


Level 8 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (3): Frost Lance
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma II


Level 9 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Spell (2): Knock
Spell (3): Displacement
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Lineage of Elements II


Level 10 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (4): Stoneskin
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy Manipulation II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation II


Level 11 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (4): Wall of Fire
Spell (3): Haste
Spell (2): Scorching Ray


Level 12 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Spell (5): Cone of Cold
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity III


Level 13 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (3): Fireball
Spell (4): Burning Blood
Spell (5): Ball Lightning
Enhancement: Sorcerer Charisma III


Level 14 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (6): Tenser's Transformation
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded III


Level 15 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Enlarge Spell
Spell (4): Force Missles
Spell (5): Teleport
Spell (6): Mass Bull's Strength
Enhancement: Sorcerer Energy of the Dragonblooded IV


Level 16 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (7): Protection From Elements, Mass
Enhancement: Sorcerer Force Manipulation II
Enhancement: Sorcerer Wand Mastery II


Level 17 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (5): Cloudkill
Spell (6): Mass Bear's Endurance
Spell (7): Delayed Blast Fireball
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 18 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Spell (8): Otto's Irresistable Dance
Enhancement: Sorcerer Improved Maximizing II


Level 19 (Sorcerer)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (7): Banishment
Spell (8): Polar Ray
Enhancement: Sorcerer Elemental Manipulation III


Level 20 (Sorcerer)
Ability Raise: CHA
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Spell (9): Meteor Swarm
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Sorcerer Spell Penetration II

[Dragavon]

No.

To me it looks like you want to be a caster more than a melee. If so multiclassing is BAD BAD BAD

[blitzschlag]

to add what dragavon said:

22 hp and a huge saves buff is not worth it loosing 2 spellpenetration if you are aiming at endgame. if inspired quarter is your endgame it might aswell be worth it tho.

you got 7 feats to spend. must have feats for endgame are (imo)

toughness (42-62 hp is huuge for a arcane)
empower
maximize
heighten
quicken
extend
spell penetration

those are all worth way more than some extra sp

[Dragavon]

I would be inclined to suggest dropping empower for greater spell penetration.

[blitzschlag]

I would be inclined to suggest dropping empower for greater spell penetration.

yeah but on the contrary most epic quests are still firewalled and empower helps for faster progress here. you can always get some past lifes for extra spell penetration

[Oliaga]

Looks like you want to be a more durable Sorc, at the cost of some spellcasting capability (-2 spellpen, -271 (assuming +6 cha item) spellpoints, 1 less 8th level spell pick, 2 less 9th, no capstone), and lose 1 on your Will.

You get 2 levels of 10 hp instead of 4, and access to Paladin Toughness 1 (+22 hp), aura of good (+1 non-stacking bonus to saves/AC), smite evil, divine grace (worth a +13 to saves with a +6 item), lay on hands, martial weapon proficiencies, +1 BAB and +3 Fort.

First off: You bought up your Str to a 14 - this gives you extra carrying capacity, some decent melee at low levels, terrible melee at high levels (without the feats or dedicated enhancements to support it. This cost you 2 points of Con - which loses you 20 of the 22 HP you got taking 2 levels of Paladin and Paladin Toughness I.

Enhancements: Seem very scattered.

Elemental Manip 3
Force Manip 2
Energy Manip 2
Lineage of Element 2
Lineage of Energy 1

Grats. You're able to do bad damage with Meteor Swarm, DBF, Polar Ray, Ball Lightning Force Missiles, Wall of Fire and Cone of Cold. - not a single school of energy maxed on the damage/crit/crit multiplier enhancements?

And some completely wasted points:

6 points for Elven Dex 2 - for a +1 Reflex?
Wand Mastery 2 - 3 points - 35% increase to wands/scrolls
Smite Evil 1 - will just be terrible
Arcane Fluidity 3 - 12 points - -10% ASF in light/medium armor - to do what?

Perversely, you didn't take Paladin Charisma I.

Feats: Toughness, Mental Toughness, Maximize, Imp Mental Toughness, Extend, Enlarge, Heighten.

The 210 spellpoints from feats, while a nice attempt to bring up your lagging spellpoints for the Paladin dip, also cost you +4 spellpen, and you're already 2 behind a single-classed Sorc. Also, no Empower hurt your damage capabilities. I would definitely drop Enlarge - it's cute, but Sorcs really don't have the feat slots for it.

The spell choice - is this your leveling spell selection, or what you intend at 20? I'm guessing leveling, because you still have several low level spells you'll never (or very rarely) cast (Niacs, Charm Person, Burning Hands, Acid Spray, Melfs), that you'll want to swap out as they become obsolete. You also have some very odd selections:

Teleport - that's what scrolls are for.

All of your sixth level spells - an amazing level, and you chose 3 turkeys - Tenser's Transformation? While cute (especially with your proficiencies) for "ooh I want to melee for a bit and save on spell points", this won't take you far. Mass Bear's Endurance - at 17th (when you take it), everyone's that values their life has a +4 Con item for sure, and most have a +6. Mass Bull's Strength at 15 - everyone that swings melee weapons has this already. My Sorc had a +4 str item for carrying capacity by then.

7th - Mass Elements - a 16th level Cleric has 5 7th level spell slots, and nearly every cleric in existence prepares this. Let them cast it. Banishment - You're a Sorc. You choose your precious high level slots by what will nearly always be useful, not what is situationally useful. Let Clerics and Wizards prepare this when you go into outsider/elemental heavy content - and then swap it out when those outsiders are immune to this anyway.

9th - Your one 9th level spell isn't Mass Hold Monster, which will generally cause you to get invited once to groups, and then not a second time.

[Dunklerlindwurm]

"Perversely, you didn't take Paladin Charisma I."

How is that Pervers?

You can't take Sorcerer Charisma and Paladin Charisma together.

[Oliaga]

"Perversely, you didn't take Paladin Charisma I."

How is that Pervers?

You can't take Sorcerer Charisma and Paladin Charisma together.

Whoops. Didn't actually know that. /sheepish grin

[Stonen]

I've been playing a human version of this build. I like it, but I allways liked battlemages.

If you wanna melee "on the side" you better make sure those monsters are held, dancing or webbed. And if you are blasting you cant swing that axe or sword. So take all spell penetration feats and swap in the cc spells.

[Dragavon]

I've been playing a human version of this build. I like it, but I allways liked battlemages.

If you wanna melee "on the side" you better make sure those monsters are held, dancing or webbed. And if you are blasting you cant swing that axe or sword. So take all spell penetration feats and swap in the cc spells.

A pally/sorc can be an awesome battlemage if built correctly. This build is not built to be a good battlemage, nor is it built to be a good caster.

If you want to build a battlemage you have to focus on dmg spells, namely WoF and melee capabilities.

It is simply not possible to build a character that is a good caster and a good melee at the same time in DDO.

If the OP told us what kind of char he wants maybe we could help better

[Aurora1979]

If you want a battle mage go pure sorc, warforged, keep masters touch.

Starting strength of 14 is PLENTY, get some DM clickies.

My WF wiz is still able to swing the falcions and hit in shavarath. Make no mistake, the damage is low and it takes a while to beat stuff down but, with stoneskin, displace, blur and reconstruct i can stand there and go toe to toe with just about anything.

If you splash you will get some marginal benefits from your splash class that will make little difference to you melee ability but will nerf your casting somewhat.



If you want PROPER DPS then stick with your spells, If you want proper melee roll a different class. If you want to be mainly a (strong) caster who can hit things with a weapon to save a bit of mana, dont splash, the trade offs not worth it.

Something else to consider.....

My wiz was a rogue splash, I used a reincar at level.... 19 i think it was, as i got fed up with my buffs etc getting dispelled. Now im pure it rarely happens.

[unbongwah]

Just to reiterate what everyone else has said: you're sacrificing a pretty decent chunk of spellcasting for higher saves and extra HPs (+22 if I'm adding right). The +1 BAB will quickly become meaningless; and martial weapons proficiency can be replicated with Master's Touch. If endgame caster is your goal, pure sorcerer is your best bet.

[jcmcminis]

ok...wow thats alot to take in. I appreciate everyone honesty though. Im new to the idea of playing a cater. I have played D&D in one form or another for almost 30 years but have only played a handful of arcane caster. I thought the bonuses to saves would be worth it, but now I know. 'And knowing is half the battle'