update 7: half-elf Dilettante

[Razcar]

Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
Prereqs: Half-Elf, 13 Dexterity
Benefit: You have learned a few tricks from less reputable sources. You deal +1d6 Sneak Attack damage, but this does not stack with the Rogue Sneak Attack ability. For item use purposes you count as a level one rogue in addition to any other classes you possess. This feat is not recommended for characters with actual rogue levels.

Does this stack with S.A. from other non-item sources, such as Ninja Spy or Rogue Past Life?

[knightgf]

So, half-elves have an ability to 'copycat' a 1st level of a class to some degree, huh? Very interesting...It's a good thing I bothered to delve into the secrets of update 7, there's so much coverage about how great half-orcs and some other things are, but yet half-elves hardly get any special treatment when it comes to advertising. I guess even to this day, all forms of elves receive some form of discrimination...

A supernatural sense in my mind tells me that someday, maybe rogues should have a ability to 'copycat' classes as well to a certain degree, much like half-elves. Your thoughts?

[GhostNull]

Until we know how this works either through a dev clarification or on Lamannia,, it is more logical to assume that this mechanic works for Dilettante as it works for other classes. I.e. that if wand use is unlocked for wands from a spell list, you will be able to use that spell lists's wands based on your current total levels, regardless what the rest of those levels are. Occam's razor.

That's why I just edited my post above stating that Eladrin should clarify this. Me, I'm just not very optimistic about some things and I just figured the Devs would have deemed it overpowered to allow a Dilettante feat to count the same as splashing a class for full-on wand usage.

[Paryan]

My current plan is as follows (subject to change, etc.):

Half-Elves will receive their choice of a Dilettante feat as a bonus feat at first level. These feats give a little taste of another class' iconic abilities without being a true multiclass. They intentionally do not provide many benefits if you take actual levels of that class, since they generally overlap with low level class abilities. It is possible that in the future we'll tie enhancement lines to many of them, giving access to related class enhancements at a slower progression than the original class gets them.

Maybe I'm missing something here so I just want to clarify....
This is a bonus feat at lv 1 for half elves, but not a true extra feat like humans get right? As a racial bonus feat, (as I read it) the half elf picks a dilettante feat, but cannot pick anything else for this bonus feat. If that's the case, it seems like it's an addition or bonus rather than taking the place of something else. You don't have to sacrifice another feat you may want to take it:it's extra.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if this is the case any concerns about not wanting to sacrifice toughness at lv 1 or something else you'd rather take are the same concerns you'd have with any race other than human anyway. With half-elves, it's an added extra.

[Narcissistic_Martyr]

Half-Elf Dilettante: Rogue
Prereqs: Half-Elf, 13 Dexterity
Benefit: You have learned a few tricks from less reputable sources. You deal +1d6 Sneak Attack damage, but this does not stack with the Rogue Sneak Attack ability. For item use purposes you count as a level one rogue in addition to any other classes you possess. This feat is not recommended for characters with actual rogue levels.

Everyone likes grenades, right?

Well this one settles it, I think my elf monk is getting a TR to a half-elf monk just as soon as I finish. New cute model with an extra d6 damage cherry on top? Should be a nice upgrade since elf doesn't really offer monks anything worth the -2 con after you've crafted some displacement clickies.

[Eladrin]

Eladrin, I do think you need to clarify if, for example Dilettante: Cleric only allows a player to use level 1 wands (Cure Light Wands) or that they can use any clerical wand provided they meet the minimum level (Cure Serious Wands at character level 5).

It functions exactly like it does for everyone else.

Enhancements for each dilettante would ROCK!!!

Indeed. I plan on adding a variety of lines in the future:

These could include things like:

• Increase your effective level of your dilettante class (mostly useful for caster level purposes)
• Access to related class enhancements (Fighter Armor Mastery, perhaps?)
• Enhancements that increase the actual Dilettante abilities (Increase the max bonus from Lesser Divine Grace, get more Sneak Attack dice, etc.)

(But they might not - these are my initial ideas.)

Does this stack with S.A. from other non-item sources, such as Ninja Spy or Rogue Past Life?

Yes, those aren't Rogue Sneak Attack. The Dilettante feats are intended to be unsuitable for the actual class they are attached to. We considered barring them from the actual classes, but it's possible to create a character that can only qualify for their own Dilettante feat. (The Half-Elf Wizard paths have a surprising number of Barbarian dilettantes. Apparently the Tower of the Twelve hazes their half-elven initiates, locking them outside the tower overnight.)

As a racial bonus feat, (as I read it) the half elf picks a dilettante feat, but cannot pick anything else for this bonus feat.

That is the case. It's free.

I just figured the Devs would have deemed it overpowered to allow a Dilettante feat to count the same as splashing a class for full-on wand usage.

It's a strong racial perk. It competes well with Warforged Immunity-To-Everything.

[GhostNull]

It functions exactly like it does for everyone else.


It's a strong racial perk. It competes well with Warforged Immunity-To-Everything.

Okay well, this is officially awesome now

[googatron]

It functions exactly like it does for everyone else.



It's a strong racial perk. It competes well with Warforged Immunity-To-Everything.

No kidding... It sounds insanely awesome! good job guys!

[TiranBlade]

It functions exactly like it does for everyone else.

Awesome!

Indeed. I plan on adding a variety of lines in the future:



These could include things like:

• Increase your effective level of your dilettante class (mostly useful for caster level purposes)
• Access to related class enhancements (Fighter Armor Mastery, perhaps?)
• Enhancements that increase the actual Dilettante abilities (Increase the max bonus from Lesser Divine Grace, get more Sneak Attack dice, etc.)

(But they might not - these are my initial ideas.)

Looking forward to this!!!

Yes, those aren't Rogue Sneak Attack. The Dilettante feats are intended to be unsuitable for the actual class they are attached to. We considered barring them from the actual classes, but it's possible to create a character that can only qualify for their own Dilettante feat. (The Half-Elf Wizard paths have a surprising number of Barbarian dilettantes. Apparently the Tower of the Twelve hazes their half-elven initiates, locking them outside the tower overnight.)

Awesome!

That is the case. It's free.

I'm glad Half-Elves get something versitile similar to a human, but not exact!!!

It's a strong racial perk. It competes well with Warforged Immunity-To-Everything.

I'm glad this is here!

Responses in Green.

It's was the best ability from a race that didn't have any game usefulness till 4th Ed. But was my favorite race just the same for role play, now it fits my interpritation of what a Half-Elf should have been and now you made this even more my favorite game!

Thanks!!
TiranBlade

[psteen1]

Maybe I'm missing something here so I just want to clarify....
This is a bonus feat at lv 1 for half elves, but not a true extra feat like humans get right? As a racial bonus feat, (as I read it) the half elf picks a dilettante feat, but cannot pick anything else for this bonus feat. If that's the case, it seems like it's an addition or bonus rather than taking the place of something else. You don't have to sacrifice another feat you may want to take it:it's extra.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but if this is the case any concerns about not wanting to sacrifice toughness at lv 1 or something else you'd rather take are the same concerns you'd have with any race other than human anyway. With half-elves, it's an added extra.

I think the point being made is that, many people would rather have toughness or a normal feat then dilettante, so they will end up picking human rather than half-elf. If they prefer the human enhancements anyway and aren't going with the elf enhancements, then certainly there would be no reason to pick half-elf. But these dilettante feats are getting cooler so maybe feat-starved classes will decide to go half-elf instead of human. But to each their own! Do what is fun for you.

[psteen1]

Half-Elf Dilettante: Fighter
Prereqs: Half-Elf, 13 Strength
Benefit: You have trained with the best, and your martial skills have improved. You gain proficiency with all martial melee weapons, and for item use purposes you count as a level one fighter in addition to any other classes you possess. This feat is not recommended for characters with actual fighter levels.

Almost as much as they like greatswords!

This is a little weak, since getting martial feats is pretty easy... how adding in the selection of a single proficiency of an exotic weapon? Now that would be cool, and would seal the deal on me using this race (and purchasing it from the store. Turbine= cha-ching.)

[Razcar]

The half-elf is shaping up to be not half-bad...

I'm curious about the rest of the Dilettante feats now. But just the feats advertised so far will inspire some new and/or changed builds.

[dkyle]

Dang... between half-elf and half-orc, I'm feeling a little shortsighted in naming my Monk "Coreforged"

I think the point being made is that, many people would rather have toughness or a normal feat then dilettante, so they will end up picking human rather than half-elf.

Are you saying this is a problem? That some races are better at certain things than others? That's pretty much how races should be designed.

For example, I don't see making my Bard half-elf because she's extremely feat starved, and already has all the versatility I could want. On the other hand, making my Monk Half-elf would make a lot more sense than making him Human, as he already just spends multiple feats on Toughness. The Rogue one, or maybe one of the other ones we haven't seen yet, could be nice to have.

This is a little weak, since getting martial feats is pretty easy... how adding in the selection of a single proficiency of an exotic weapon? Now that would be cool, and would seal the deal on me using this race (and purchasing it from the store. Turbine= cha-ching.)

Getting all martial proficiencies requires taking a level in Fighter or another class that grants them. Which is exactly what these feats are supposed to emulate. Granting Khopesh proficiency to half-elves for free would be very overpowered. Add this, and basically no TWF would ever be Human if they could be Half-elf.

It's useful for melee Clerics/FvS and melee pure Bards. That's enough.

[Razcar]

I think the point being made is that, many people would rather have toughness or a normal feat then dilettante, so they will end up picking human rather than half-elf. If they prefer the human enhancements anyway and aren't going with the elf enhancements, then certainly there would be no reason to pick half-elf. But these dilettante feats are getting cooler so maybe feat-starved classes will decide to go half-elf instead of human. But to each their own! Do what is fun for you.

No other feats gives you e.g. 1d6 Sneak Attack or use of divine wands. And some builds have plenty of feats, and many others have enough - especially seeing that the majority of the feats offered in DDO are not useful anyway. So there's nothing saying the half-elf cannot fit in all the feats needed for the build, just like all other races sans humans do today.

[TiranBlade]

This is a little weak, since getting martial feats is pretty easy... how adding in the selection of a single proficiency of an exotic weapon? Now that would be cool, and would seal the deal on me using this race (and purchasing it from the store. Turbine= cha-ching.)

Yes, but fighters are not profiicient with Exotics off the bat, they are with Martial though. It make sense for the right multi/non-multi's. *Looks at the Wizard, Rogue, Bard, and Sorcerer specifically.*

[Wrendd]

I am wondering how well a Half-Elf fighter/wiz with cleric dilettante would work as a solo toon. All the wands for healing buffing, could still take PrC (hmm.. Kensei/Archmage.. probably not optimal, but might be fun)

[jkm]

i think half-elf just became the defacto race for non-rapier rogues. being able to add all martial feats for free without having to m/c is pretty powerful (as in 4d6 of sneak attack damage powerful).

[The_Cataclysm]

This is a little weak, since getting martial feats is pretty easy... how adding in the selection of a single proficiency of an exotic weapon? Now that would be cool, and would seal the deal on me using this race (and purchasing it from the store. Turbine= cha-ching.)

Exotic isn't granted to fighters so it wouldn't make sense for fighter feat to grant it. Maybe shield proficiency instead on top of martial weapons.

[psteen1]

No other feats gives you e.g. 1d6 Sneak Attack or use of divine wands. And some builds have plenty of feats, and many others have enough - especially seeing that the majority of the feats offered in DDO are not useful anyway. So there's nothing saying the half-elf cannot fit in all the feats needed for the build, just like all other races sans humans do today.

Yes, I'm sure you are right. In my particular case with a potential TWF bard that I am planning, I am one feat short of what I would like so I have to cut out toughness. So, choosing half-elf vs. human really comes down to there being a dilettante that is more appealing to me than toughness.... But to each their own, that is what I say. Paladin dilettante is pretty tempting for a character with good charisma, like a bard. But is it better than 50 extra hitpoints (after enhancments)? I am torn. You know, planning these things is just as much fun for me as playing the game.

[dkyle]

Yes, I'm sure you are right. In my particular case with a potential TWF bard that I am planning, I am one feat short of what I would like so I have to cut out toughness.

A Bard without toughness is a terrible idea. Believe me, I've tried. Sounds like Human will be the best choice for you.