With the TWf nerf whats the best melee DPS?

[LordSemaj]

And...somehow not having over 200% is the same as "not being able to be healed"?

Or the fact that the ability to gain healing amp is a universally shared trait and not a loophole for the Warforged's healing resistance.

Sneak Attack damage is not "critical" damage. The only thing the two have in common is that both are blocked by Fortification.

I don't know how I can make that any clearer.

I don't know how I can make this any clearer... Sneak attack damage is the same damage type as critical damage, this is on the programmer's level and fundamental to basic D&D rules. That's why both are stopped by Fort, that's why Sneak attacks are not multiplied on crits, and your persistent retaliation is naught but arguing semantics.

Lowered fortification also grants extra critical attacks as well you know. The Rogue can get the highest DPS, but it's situational on not having aggro and not fighting things with lots of Fortification.

The Highest DPS -NOT- having aggro while being situationally useless..... Lowered fort permits crits and sneak attacks, but not 100% of the time... the Rogue still has to contend with the fighter's naturally high damage and damage boosting effects, so unless you are commenting on a dual Heavy Pick rogue versus held mobs with Fort, the balance is maintained between Fighters and Rogues until you venture into a dungeon without Fort (sweeping Fighter favor) or face the undead (Fighter slamdunks again).

This keen differential in mechanics keeps Fighters favored in epics and a far cry everywhere else.

[Krag]

The Highest DPS -NOT- having aggro while being situationally useless..... Lowered fort permits crits and sneak attacks, but not 100% of the time... the Rogue still has to contend with the fighter's naturally high damage and damage boosting effects, so unless you are commenting on a dual Heavy Pick rogue versus held mobs with Fort, the balance is maintained between Fighters and Rogues until you venture into a dungeon without Fort (sweeping Fighter favor) or face the undead (Fighter slamdunks again).

Fighters (Kensei) hate fighting undead because they have to swap their favorite weapons to deal with DR.

[LordSemaj]

Fighters (Kensei) hate fighting undead because they have to swap their favorite weapons to deal with DR.

And rogues don't? Piercing damage DR, crit/SA immunity, and not enough STR to effectively ignore slash/blunt DRs. Fighter has feats on his side, not just Kensei, and a power attacking fighter can dps through undead DR if in a pinch.

[dkyle]

Or the fact that the ability to gain healing amp is a universally shared trait and not a loophole for the Warforged's healing resistance.

Healing amp is something that, for most characters, doesn't need to go beyond a certain point. A WF with 112% healing amp is not really hurting that much compared to a non-WF with 170%. Most heals over-heal anyway. Healing amp allows WF to get to the point where it's good enough.

I don't know how I can make this any clearer... Sneak attack damage is the same damage type as critical damage, this is on the programmer's level and fundamental to basic D&D rules.

No it isn't. Critical damage is still subject to DR, SA never is. Fort simply prevents two different types of damage: critical damage, and sneak attack damage. SA isn't multiplied because the rules specifically say "Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit", not because sneak attack damage is somehow already critical damage.

you venture into a dungeon without Fort (sweeping Fighter favor)

Wait... you're saying that Fighters are better than Rogues vs. enemies with no Fort? Yeah, that's definitely not true. Rogues bury everything else vs. non-fort when they don't have aggro.

[Gumbolo]

And rogues don't? Piercing damage DR, crit/SA immunity, and not enough STR to effectively ignore slash/blunt DRs. Fighter has feats on his side, not just Kensei, and a power attacking fighter can dps through undead DR if in a pinch.

Opportunity feat reduces fortification, also not enough str? You seem to be forgetting that there's fairly a lot of strength based rogues with power attack.

[LordSemaj]

Since few people seem to be reading the threads and would rather keen in on out of context observations, please refer to the originality clauses below...

Healing amp is something that, for most characters, doesn't need to go beyond a certain point. A WF with 112% healing amp is not really hurting that much compared to a non-WF with 170%. Most heals over-heal anyway. Healing amp allows WF to get to the point where it's good enough.

Original Statement: Half-orc Fighter > Warforged Fighter for SEVERAL reasons, only one of which was lack of a need to resort to healing amp. Again, not knocking the viability of a warforged being healed, so engaging in the conversation would be preferable to resorting to sniping.

No it isn't. Critical damage is still subject to DR, SA never is. Fort simply prevents two different types of damage: critical damage, and sneak attack damage. SA isn't multiplied because the rules specifically say "Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit", not because sneak attack damage is somehow already critical damage.

Original Statement: Half-orc Fighter wielding Epic SoS > Rogue dual wielding Sneak Attacks, remains valid as proven by the DPS charts on epic runs with a mix of fortified and unfortified mobs. Venture a build for the rogue that surpasses, bearing in mind that twinking out a rogue to have 200 hps and obscene damage is not a valid build (completely theory crafted build that cannot function in the real setting).

Wait... you're saying that Fighters are better than Rogues vs. enemies with no Fort? Yeah, that's definitely not true. Rogues bury everything else vs. non-fort when they don't have aggro.

Original Statement: Half-orc Fighter wielding EPIC SoS > Rogue vs No Fort enemy... there's a significant difference between Rogue strength levels and Half-orc Fighter strength levels, and rogue PrEs are poorly built for damage enhancement. Relying solely on Sneak Attack as the crutch for dps gets adequately surpassed by enhancements/feats/items when referring to the Title subject, namely Best Melee DPS.

Keening in on choice phrases doesn't reflect on the reason for the discussion, or the comments that specifically denote the top contender. Failing to grasp any of that, you may supplement the argument with the idea that this can all be construed as opinion since there is no defined parameters for Best.

Opportunity feat reduces fortification, also not enough str? You seem to be forgetting that there's fairly a lot of strength based rogues with power attack.

Sneak Attack
Description Adds 1d6 damage when attacking enemies while hidden or if enemy is engaged in melee combat with another character. Can be use with ranged weapons within 30 feet. Benefit increases by 1d6 at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19. Does not affect undead, plants, constructs or oozes.

You were saying?

[dkyle]

Original Statement: Half-orc Fighter > Warforged Fighter for SEVERAL reasons, only one of which was lack of a need to resort to healing amp. Again, not knocking the viability of a warforged being healed, so engaging in the conversation would be preferable to resorting to sniping.

Life/Def is also a bit easier when you CAN be healed by the cleric.

Sounds like a knock to me. You suggested that WF healing penalty was a major problem. Someone else noted that it can be overcome with healing amp. You suggested that WF healing penalty was still significant even when they get above 100%, since a non-WF would have "200%". I noted that 200% is excessive, and not very useful in most cases. A WF with over 100% is not facing a significant penalty in healing compared to any non-WF.

Original Statement: Half-orc Fighter wielding Epic SoS > Rogue dual wielding Sneak Attacks, remains valid as proven by the DPS charts on epic runs with a mix of fortified and unfortified mobs.

What chart? Why is it on "epic runs"? Is it somehow incorporating auto-crits? That sounds like a weird chart.

All the charts I've seen have pure rogues heads and shoulders above everything else.

Original Statement: Half-orc Fighter wielding EPIC SoS > Rogue vs No Fort enemy... there's a significant difference between Rogue strength levels and Half-orc Fighter strength levels, and rogue PrEs are poorly built for damage enhancement.

So is the rogue getting SA here or not? It's a no fort enemy, so he should. If he isn't for some reason, well, obviously the fighter will out-DPS him. If he is, how is this different than your previous "original statement"?

Relying solely on Sneak Attack as the crutch for dps gets adequately surpassed by enhancements/feats/items when referring to the Title subject, namely Best Melee DPS.

Damage is damage. Rogues can apply sneak attack consistently to the main enemies we care about. That makes them top DPS, in most situations. Your blanket statements that Fighters are better DPS than Rogues are puzzling.

Keening in on choice phrases doesn't reflect on the reason for the discussion, or the comments that specifically denote the top contender.

You made certain statements, I replied to them to the best of my ability. Perhaps you should be clearer?

Does not affect undead, plants, constructs or oozes.

So? Who cares? Everyone sucks at fighting those, and the most important enemies are none of those things. And if we're after "max DPS", we're going to be looking at non-fortified mobs.

Edit: Perhaps it would be helpful if you provided a little context yourself. Tracing through the thread, it would seem you were objecting to the Opportunist feat being applied to undead. My understanding is that in DDO, as currently implemented, Opportunist is allowing SA on undead.

[LordSemaj]

Sounds like a knock to me. You suggested that WF healing penalty was a major problem. Someone else noted that it can be overcome with healing amp. You suggested that WF healing penalty was still significant even when they get above 100%, since a non-WF would have "200%". I noted that 200% is excessive, and not very useful in most cases. A WF with over 100% is not facing a significant penalty in healing compared to any non-WF.

Never suggested anything close to a "major problem", never suggested that the penalty was "still significant", and in both cases stated that healing amp is a universal characteristic. Each case points out one simple thing, that there exists a penalty and little else. What YOU are inferring is that the penalty in no way, shape, or form hinders the Warforged any more than a Half-orc that lacks said penalty.

That is quite the egregious statement to make on your part.

What chart? Why is it on "epic runs"? Is it somehow incorporating auto-crits? That sounds like a weird chart.

All the charts I've seen have pure rogues heads and shoulders above everything else.

The thread is relating to top dps contenders, the better question is why WOULDN'T it be measured on epic runs, especially considering the characters are expected and stated as having epic items? The DPS charts is a pseudonym for statistical comparison of running meters between similarly geared characters. Said meter can be downloaded as an addon.

So is the rogue getting SA here or not? It's a no fort enemy, so he should. If he isn't for some reason, well, obviously the fighter will out-DPS him. If he is, how is this different than your previous "original statement"?

Why are you looking for differences? These multiple chains are spamming from single comments, of course the comments will remain unchanged across multiple instances, that is called CONSISTENCY. Just because a gaggle of forum trolls break apart a single post into seven bullets does not mean you will be finding seven original statements to combat them.

Regarding the SAs, yes the rogue is getting SAs and no he isn't surpassing the HORC kensei wielding the most broken weapon in the game. Two-weapon fighting is a classic option, until Epic SoS is involved. Much like Rogue sneak attacks, certain game items change the rules entirely.

Damage is damage. Rogues can apply sneak attack consistently to the main enemies we care about. That makes them top DPS, in most situations. Your blanket statements that Fighters are better DPS than Rogues are puzzling.

Your blanket statement, not mine. My statement was regarding a half-orc fighter wielding epic sword of shadow with the proper build and gear. Subsequent statements where that is shorted to "fighter" are purely for space saving purposes, so let's not be anal retentive, shall we?

You made certain statements, I replied to them to the best of my ability. Perhaps you should be clearer?

Clear as day:

Half-orc Kensei wielding Epic Sword of Shadow is the BEST Melee DPS in the game.

So? Who cares? Everyone sucks at fighting those, and the most important enemies are none of those things. And if we're after "max DPS", we're going to be looking at non-fortified mobs.

We are looking at the best melee dps, not the max dps, not the max dps except against undead, not the max dps except against fortified mobs, not the max dps at the expense of survival, and certainly not the max burst dps (otherwise a chain-casting polar ray caster wins hands down).

Again, reread the thread, particularly the author's post, prior to hitting the Post Reply button. Saves a lot of time.

[Vengenance]

The healability of a WF is a moot topic. Best tanks are and will continue to be WF. They have hate enhacements, WF PA enhancements, con enhancements, racial tactics line, and can be healed easily by both Arcane and Divine Magic. They also can be healed when cursed (important for VOD and TOD).

Highest DPS class, probably a HO Barb, at least at present or a multi-class Kensaii/Barb combo.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Regarding the SAs, yes the rogue is getting SAs and no he isn't surpassing the HORC kensei wielding the most broken weapon in the game. Two-weapon fighting is a classic option, until Epic SoS is involved. Much like Rogue sneak attacks, certain game items change the rules entirely.

News flash: Rogues can use Epic Sword of Shadows too.


The weapon isn't restricted to "Fighters".

[PopeJual]

News flash: Rogues can use Epic Sword of Shadows too.


The weapon isn't restricted to "Fighters".

But sneak attack damage isn't multiplied by critical hits and fighting THF instead of TWF means you miss out on about 45% of your Sneak Attack damage.

[Qezuzu]

News flash: Rogues can use Epic Sword of Shadows too.


The weapon isn't restricted to "Fighters".

They can, but TWF is superior to THF in every case for Rogues.

The non-SAable monsters aren't much of a problem. Plants are in one area. Oozes are just annoying and largely nonexistent in endgame. Elementals are tough on everyone, and get dominated by casters. Undead get ***PWNED by casters so the DPS anyone can do on them is moot in a well balanced party.

Any halfling assassin can get 17d6+28 damage. A rogue built for insane DPS, however, will focus on the base damage. i.e. STR based. I have a halfling STR based assassin rogue. I will be getting PA on it once I get an item to no-fail heal scrolls and drop Skill Focus: UMD. I've also been running Fens for the epic Claw set. After that, my base damage will be about 50% of my SA damage.

My rogue is also TRed, so I get +1 to SA damage. I also have the clickie that gives +10 to damage for 3 mins. While using that, plus 30% haste, haste pots, rage pots, Titan's grip, I will and have stolen aggro from a barb using eSoS. While using -30% hate. And with +9 damage to come. I also don't use Kopheses.

I don't know where your facts are coming from, but they're false. Rogues are top DPS on 0-fort, unaggroed mobs. Period. And if you're giving the comparable fighter an eSoS, then the rogue's DPS should be measured on a 0-fort mob. Leave the undead out of it. Nearly all mobs that are vulnerable to SA's have 0-fort anyway.

Lastly, your statement;-

Venture a build for the rogue that surpasses, bearing in mind that twinking out a rogue to have 200 hps and obscene damage is not a valid build (completely theory crafted build that cannot function in the real setting).

Really eats away at your credibility. (base 10 con) Rogues get a min of 140 HP. 200 HP for a base CON of 16, which does not reduce DPS. 290 HP for using a GFL and a +6 CON item, which does not reduce DPS. 312 for toughness feat, which does not reduce DPS. 332 for the two toughness AP's, which does not reduce DPS. 352 for a +2 CON tome, which does not reduce DPS. etc.

And also leads me to believe you have absolutely never rolled a Rogue and have never encountered a truly Epic Rogue™.

[AylinIsAwesome]

But sneak attack damage isn't multiplied by critical hits and fighting THF instead of TWF means you miss out on about 45% of your Sneak Attack damage.

Yes, though the person I was replying to was using the brokenness of the eSos as the basis for his argument that Horc Fighters are better DPS than Rogues.

Just saying that the weapon isn't exclusive to a single class.

[AylinIsAwesome]

They can, but TWF is superior to THF in every case for Rogues.

The non-SAable monsters aren't much of a problem. Plants are in one area. Oozes are just annoying and largely nonexistent in endgame. Elementals are tough on everyone, and get dominated by casters. Undead get ***PWNED by casters so the DPS anyone can do on them is moot in a well balanced party.

Any halfling assassin can get 17d6+28 damage. A rogue built for insane DPS, however, will focus on the base damage. i.e. STR based. I have a halfling STR based assassin rogue. I will be getting PA on it once I get an item to no-fail heal scrolls and drop Skill Focus: UMD. I've also been running Fens for the epic Claw set. After that, my base damage will be about 50% of my SA damage.

My rogue is also TRed, so I get +1 to SA damage. I also have the clickie that gives +10 to damage for 3 mins. While using that, plus 30% haste, haste pots, rage pots, Titan's grip, I will and have stolen aggro from a barb using eSoS. While using -30% hate. And with +9 damage to come. I also don't use Kopheses.

I don't know where your facts are coming from, but they're false. Rogues are top DPS on 0-fort, unaggroed mobs. Period. And if you're giving the comparable fighter an eSoS, then the rogue's DPS should be measured on a 0-fort mob. Leave the undead out of it. Nearly all mobs that are vulnerable to SA's have 0-fort anyway.

Lastly, your statement;-



Really eats away at your credibility. (base 10 con) Rogues get a min of 140 HP. 200 HP for a base CON of 16, which does not reduce DPS. 290 HP for using a GFL and a +6 CON item, which does not reduce DPS. 312 for toughness feat, which does not reduce DPS. 332 for the two toughness AP's, which does not reduce DPS. 352 for a +2 CON tome, which does not reduce DPS. etc.

And also leads me to believe you have absolutely never rolled a Rogue and have never encountered a truly Epic Rogue™.

^ Right on all counts.

[Razcar]

DPS over 5 minutes of fighting:

Half-Orc 20th level kensai, 56 Str, with ESoS
0 Fort: 577.4
50 Fort: 398.26
100 Fort: 219.12

Half-Orc 20th level rogue, 44 Str, with Min II khopesh
0 Fort: 642.6
40 Fort: 449.42
90 Fort: 261.14