Snuff, 36pt Defender of Siberys

[aurum1]

Time for my final TR and I wanted some input from the Paladin community on my plans.

Build Goals-
1) Higher DPS than a straight 20 fighter Stalwart Defender
2) 80 intimidate for elite Hound
3) 72 AC TWF (+2 prot evil =74) for Soulomades normal
4) Reasonable route to 80-85 AC S&B
5) Hate tank Horoth with a head start of ~5-10 seconds (group killing 1st two Orthons)

Build Restrictions-
1) Snuff is a dwarf. I don't care that humans are better intimitanks.
2) Build can only REQUIRE a +3 dex tome. My luck with good tomes is horrible. A 20th hox & ToD are coming up in a few days so hoping for a +4 cha tome there, but that can wait until after the TR as well.


Snuffles 18paladin/2fighter
Stats
Str - 16base +5 levels +6 item +1 fighter +2 tome +2 exceptional = 32
Dex - 14base +3tome +6 item = 23 (can reach higher, but will have MDB of 6 as planned)
Con - 16base +2dorf +2tome +6item +2exceptional = 28
Int - 12base +2 tome = 14
Wis - 8base +2 tome +6 item = 16
Cha - 14base +2 tome +2pally +6 item =24 (26 & DM3 if +4 tome , 28 with exceptional stat and/or epic vambraces)

Saves - Higher than a straight fighter didn't bother to calculate exactly

HP
20 Heroic
200 pally/fighter
140 con bonus
22 toughness
60 toughness enhancements
20 minos
30 GFL
10 draconic
45 shroud
---
547 standing around
40 stance
40 yugo
---
627 ready to fight
667 madstone

Intimidate
23 ranks
9 cha (counting on +4 tome & +2 exceptional source)
6 shroud
2 active past life
15 item
5 epic brawn's spirits
3 SF:intim
1 fighter
2 luck
4 GH
----
70 standing around
Some combination of:
+2 bard
+3 cha skills pot
+1 cha pot
+1 yugo
+2 ship buffs
to reach no fail hound or epic DQ as needed

AC breakdown
10 base
15 DT plate
3 chattering rune
1 alchemical
5 protection
6 aura
6 dexterity
5 combat expertise
4 insight weapon
2 chaosgarde
4 stance
2 TOD set
----
63 standing around
+4 shield wand easy to do
+5 barksin or +3pot +2 recitation
72 for sally normal

80 AC easy with shield, bard, haste, recitation etc.

UMD of 32 enough for wands and occasional scrolls

Current gear
Armor: Dragon Touched (+5 prot/resist/chattering) -Epic vambraces eventually for swap
Head: Minos Legen, Intim +15 -Epic Helm of Mronnon close to completion
Trinket: Bloodstone, HOGF -Epic brawn's spirits after u7
Necklace: Stalwart set today, Shintao after TR
Goggles: Shroud triple negative immunity set today, probably conc-opp after TR
Ring 1: Stalwart set ring +2 exceptional con
Ring 2: Tumbleweed
Cloak: Shroud airx3 cha skills
Belt: DoS III Belt (+6 Constitution, Greater False Life) -Epic belt of Mronnon close to completion
Gloves: Shroud minII 45 hp
Wrist: Chaosguard
Boots: Firestorm, Madstone x2, striders, etc

Weapons: +4 Insight minII, +4 insight litII, holy/shock/shock litII, assorted random items
Shield: Leviks Defender

[aurum1]

Planner Output - order of feats/enhancements just place holder. Seeing what fit
*edited had wrong skill focus & dwarven enhancement*

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Snuff 18p2 
Level 20 Lawful Good Dwarf Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 402
Spell Points: 205 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 28
Reflex: 18
Will: 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            14                    17
Constitution         16                    20
Intelligence         12                    14
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma             14                    20

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 17

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               2                    10.5
Bluff                 2                     5
Concentration         7                    13
Diplomacy             2                     5
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     5
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            2                    31
Jump                  3                     7
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     2
Search                1                     4
Spot                 -1                     0
Swim                  3                     7
Tumble                4                     6.5
Use Magic Device      4                    19.5

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Student of the Sword


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery II
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III

[aurum1]

Trade-offs I see here vs. going fighter
Lose
+4 to hit from fighter feats which bothers me
+8 always on damage bonus
10% always on double strike
30% haste clicky
Some blocking AC&DR from stance
~5 AC
~40 hit points

Gain back
lots o saves
DMIII
zeal
divine favor
divine sacrifice
smites
1000hp heal
lay on hands
some SP for heal

Other trade-offs
DOS set competes with belt slot for epic belt of Mronnon vs. Stalwart necklace competing with shintao set
Need to craft new goggles

Overall ---
18pally/2 fighter can squeak out the AC&intim thresholds I need without a stretch (ship buffs & house D pots are easy for the 2 raids where needed)
I think the DPS is higher, but haven't really played a pally. I am counting on the divine righteousness and smites/sacrifices to establish the hate agro on horoth.
Other input?

[k1ngp1n]

At first glance?

Your intim number is off. You have SF:Intim listed, but not in your feat selections. I am also quite positive that the passive PL:Fighter doesn't work on Intim either. It says boosts to DCs of combat feats. Intim does not qualify.

[aurum1]

DOH on the passive past life feat. That will limit me to a 79 intim baring some more exceptional stats and perfect pot combinations.

Also fixed the planner output. Had the wrong skill in there.

[Aranticus]

OP you might want to qualify your statement of "more dps than stalwart" before anyone starts bashing your build. as far as i can tell, your dps seems lower

[aurum1]

OP you might want to qualify your statement of "more dps than stalwart" before anyone starts bashing your build. as far as i can tell, your dps seems lower

Well that is where I am looking for feedback. I have never played a paladin so I don't have a feel for the damage output of the paladin clickies. To me it would seem that the smites/zeal/sacrifices/DM3 would make up for the lower strength and fighter feats/enhancements he is missing.

Also what brings me this route is divine righteousness. If it is working then the hate boost should hold agro over the stalwart build....If it can't then I will go fighter for next life again.

[Aranticus]

DT has mbd 1, fighter past life 1, dos 2. how did you get to 6 mbd when dwarven armor mastery doesnt show?

[aurum1]

Fixed had wrong dwarven enhancements.

Also a closer look at DPS. If I assume the pally can keep DM3, zeal, and divine favor running then the DPS challenge comes down to

fighter haste boost spam vs. sacrifice/smite spam

I would expect the sacrifice/smite spam to provide higher DPS no? Is it safe to assume DM3, zeal, and favor running all the time?

[Aranticus]

Well that is where I am looking for feedback. I have never played a paladin so I don't have a feel for the damage output of the paladin clickies. To me it would seem that the smites/zeal/sacrifices/DM3 would make up for the lower strength and fighter feats/enhancements he is missing.

Also what brings me this route is divine righteousness. If it is working then the hate boost should hold agro over the stalwart build....If it can't then I will go fighter for next life again.

in comparison,

a stalwart has: +1 damage from str, +6 damage from wpn spec, +2 damage from dwarf, +5 damage from PA (since u said the fighter will have 5 more ac, eliminating the need for CE, 10% alacrity, 30% haste boost

your pally has: +6 damage from DM 3, +3 damage from DF (note in reality this advantage is only +2 as fighter can benefit from prayer), 10% zeal, DS 1, ES 1

the DM 3 can negate the damage from wpn spec and 10% zeal negate capstone. so in reality you are basically comparing how DS 1 and ES 1 will measure up to +6 damage and 30% haste boost. DS 1 can be used as long as you have hp and sp. ES is the one you will have problems keeping up as you only have 7 which is easily used up. my guess is you will have the initial dps advantage due to ES but once its used up, the stalwart will do more damage, possibly too much for divine righteous to overcome too

[Aranticus]

Fixed had wrong dwarven enhancements.

Also a closer look at DPS. If I assume the pally can keep DM3, zeal, and divine favor running then the DPS challenge comes down to

fighter haste boost spam vs. sacrifice/smite spam

I would expect the sacrifice/smite spam to provide higher DPS no? Is it safe to assume DM3, zeal, and favor running all the time?

fighter haste boost spam is 100s over 5 minutes. pally smites are over in roughly 30s

DM3? yes, zeal and favor? you can but only for 2 mins if you are using madstone boots. you can avoid this problem by switching out your boots but that would mean a break in the attacks resulting in dps loss. a fighter with a madstone does not suffer any problems as its abilities are not related to spell casting

[aurum1]

The fighter has a potential for higher AC. He wouldn't always have it
+3 from stalwart
+2/3 from 8 dex - possibly 9
+1 dodge
+1 TWD
This puts him at 73ac TWF with CE on & +5 barkskin
He needs to pickup 4 more from haste/pally/bard whatever to switch on power attack

I am not counting on the fighter version having PA on significantly more often than the paladin version so I wasn't counting that in a DPS difference. At that point we have ES1 & DS1 vs the 30% haste boost. I think that lets the paladin establish hate agro better.

The problem I am running into with the stalwart build is that I am running out of DPS boosting feats & enhancements but can too easily reach the AC & intim thresholds...so looking for a split class.

[Aranticus]

your are assuming very specific senarios in your calculations. the pally aura (6) would be canceled out by the higher max dex and stalwart enhancements which means that the fighter version would be higher by 2 ac. in other for you to drop the CE, it mean you would need more buffs than the fighter. in a pug situation the short fall of 3 ac is more easily made up than 5. this is how i'm looking at it. now in the best situation, yes both will have PA up so its a moot point again. what happens if its horoth?

[aurum1]

I think assuming a SD won't have a pally aura around is a safe specific assumption to make. At least in my runs we rarely have a decent pally AC aura around. The other source of 3ac would be a bard song & haste which is pretty likely I suppose.

My main concern here IS the Horoth fight. That is where I want a higher DPS to build up a hate agro cushion vs. relying on intimidate. Stuns/mistimed intims are too risky in that fight with having Horoth run off to chase the DPS group on Sally.

[Aranticus]

I think assuming a SD won't have a pally aura around is a safe specific assumption to make. At least in my runs we rarely have a decent pally AC aura around. The other source of 3ac would be a bard song & haste which is pretty likely I suppose.

My main concern here IS the Horoth fight. That is where I want a higher DPS to build up a hate agro cushion vs. relying on intimidate. Stuns/mistimed intims are too risky in that fight with having Horoth run off to chase the DPS group on Sally.

horoth is never the problem. if your dps is low, a good raid leader will give you 30s to 1 min to establish agro. after suulo drops, you have horoth all to yourself. you have plently of time to get his agro that it will not break when the rest are beating on him after dispatching suulo. what you want however is 2 things, get to a high enough AC to make him miss you so that you will not incap and lose agro, and to have sufficient hp to survive a failed disintegrate

[aurum1]

horoth is never the problem. if your dps is low, a good raid leader will give you 30s to 1 min to establish agro. after suulo drops, you have horoth all to yourself. you have plently of time to get his agro that it will not break when the rest are beating on him after dispatching suulo. what you want however is 2 things, get to a high enough AC to make him miss you so that you will not incap and lose agro, and to have sufficient hp to survive a failed disintegrate

I usually am the raid leader and don't like having people wait around for me to get agro...I want to do it faster! When I was generally better geared it was easier, but as the barbs and pallys in the guild start to finish up ToD sets & epic items my DPS isn't scaling enough. I am needing more and more time to establish that hate.

[Aranticus]

I usually am the raid leader and don't like having people wait around for me to get agro...I want to do it faster! When I was generally better geared it was easier, but as the barbs and pallys in the guild start to finish up ToD sets & epic items my DPS isn't scaling enough. I am needing more and more time to establish that hate.

if you want it to go faster, roll up a kotc

[aurum1]

Well a pure KoTC can't hit the AC & intim needed to tank all the raids. I am probably going to shift this to a 12 fighter/8pally. Picks back up stalwart defender 2, haste boost, Greater weapon specialization to go with KoTC1, DM1, and still divine righteousness, sacrifice, and exalted smite.

[Aranticus]

Well a pure KoTC can't hit the AC & intim needed to tank all the raids. I am probably going to shift this to a 12 fighter/8pally. Picks back up stalwart defender 2, haste boost, Greater weapon specialization to go with KoTC1, DM1, and still divine righteousness, sacrifice, and exalted smite.

in ddo, you do not need ac or intim to tank. tanking can be done via dps, hate too. so long as you have a huge hp pool, you can tank well. my fighter doesnt have the necessary ac to tank horoth, but he does so by swinging 2 khopeshes that crits for over 200. my barb tanked lailat before. it hurt a little but thats all

[Dylvish]

Well that is where I am looking for feedback. I have never played a paladin so I don't have a feel for the damage output of the paladin clickies. To me it would seem that the smites/zeal/sacrifices/DM3 would make up for the lower strength and fighter feats/enhancements he is missing.

Also what brings me this route is divine righteousness. If it is working then the hate boost should hold agro over the stalwart build....If it can't then I will go fighter for next life again.

If it helps, in U7 I read that they are making intimidate a paladin class skill. So this should help quite a bit with your intimitanking as well, shouldnt it?

Question on DM, is it light damage, or just raise the damage you are doing? If it is light damage, its not resistable or reduceable is it? Or am I wrong on its source.