Manyshot as a Double Strike Bonus

[Coldin]

So, one of the biggest bonuses an archer gets is Manyshot. The ability to fire several arrows all at once. In fact, an archer using manyshot can deal some of the highest DPS in the game.

Unfortunately, because of this, any archer without Manyshot, or with it on cooldown, quickly sinks to some of the lowest DPS. It makes it incredibly difficult to buff archery though, since almost any buff will also buff the already powerful Manyshot.

So, I propose a significant change to Manyshot. Instead of it's current implementation, the feat would give a passive % increase to an archer's double strike bonus. This bonus could increase as a player's BaB increases, and would stack with other abilities that increase double strike chances. This would normalize archery across the board, and allow ranged combat as a whole to receive an increase in speed.

[Ravoc-DDO]

I'd have to be a significant % to keep ranged combat viable then, or it might disappear from gameplay entirely.

[Ystradmynach]

I've actually come to like the dynamic nature of manyshot, and would be disappointed if it got replaced with a passive bonus.

I don't think it is as hard to buff archery without buffing manyshot as you make it out to be either. I don't see why you can't have two shooting speeds, one for manyshot and one for non-manyshot mode. So if you leave manyshot at the current speed, you could speed up the rate of fire when you are aren't in manyshot mode. Loading and firing four arrows at once will of course take a little more time than firing one arrow at a time.

Another thing to take into consideration is that the penalty to hit for manyshot has never been implemented, but may be in the future. A -8 penalty to hit would do a lot to balance the ability.

[azrael4h]

Another thing to take into consideration is that the penalty to hit for manyshot has never been implemented, but may be in the future. A -8 penalty to hit would do a lot to balance the ability.

I hope they never implement it though. Ranged is already all but useless except in contrived conditions. The entire game is built around DPS, and horribly nerfing the only thing that gives an archer a chance to contribute anything towards dps would kill ranged combat entirely.

As Ravoc said it'd have to be significant, otherwise it'll just go down as a nerf to the weakest combat style in DDO. It'd be ranged combat's U5.

[Ystradmynach]

I hope they never implement it though. Ranged is already all but useless except in contrived conditions. The entire game is built around DPS, and horribly nerfing the only thing that gives an archer a chance to contribute anything towards dps would kill ranged combat entirely.

By ranged I assume you mean all ranged except for an AA ranger or AA Kensai archery build, which is quite useful against multiple mobs when manyshot is running, and even against single mobs manyshot does good damage.

Anyway, I agree with you that a manyshot nerf by itself would be a terrible mistake and make ranged useless (which it isn't now for the builds I mentioned above), although probably not as bad as people think for non-epic content given how easy it is to hit things. I only mentioned the nerf in context of balancing all of ranged combat by buffing up other aspects of ranged combat at the same time, so more than archery was useful in the game. If archery is the only type of ranged combat to employ manyshot, than it needs to be looked at to make sure that it doesn't completely dominate above everything else for ranged.

The other option is to give every type of ranged combat a manyshot option, but that would take away a lot of the uniqueness of having different ranged weapons in the first place.

[LupusVai]

It has been mentioned before but I think that a solution would be to make Manyshot a stance (like CE or PA)

Perhaps limiting it to only 2 arrows per shot and giving a minus to hit.

Many shot at the momment improves with bab so maybe the minus to hit goes down as i think that increased arrows might be a bit OP? At the end of the day ranged should always be a bit behind melee but certainly needs a very substantual buff.

[h4x0r1f1c]

Oh yeah let them doublestrike nonstop at higher levels because they have a high BAB and shouldn't have to wait 2 minutes to do good ranged damage which won't run out like spell points do for casters.

/not signed

[Kazasu]

Oh yeah let them doublestrike nonstop at higher levels because they have a high BAB and shouldn't have to wait 2 minutes to do good ranged damage which won't run out like spell points do for casters.

/not signed

Yeah, I agree with you. Rangers shouldn't have to wait 2 minutes to do good damage near that of what melee classes can do.

Making a balance between the ranger's regular not so great damage and manyshot damage would go a long way balancing the range vs melee. If the bonus damage for the manyshot burst damage is lessened, and regular damage increased, be it by attack speed or other stances and whatnot, then we'll have more balanced ranged damage. With burst not being extreme and normal shot not being the other extreme.

Edit: Just a quick edit. Casters need a few fixes as well as ranged, so I'll agree with you there as well. But using that as a reason not to fix range isn't the best idea.

[supp3nhuhn]

I don't really see the need for both rangers and kensai who can switch to full fledged melee while manyshot is in cooldown.

I think for many of those a nerf to manyshot could be quite a hit for overall dps no matter if you buff ranged in general afterwards.

[Shyver]

As has been stated time and time again over the last 4+ years, make manyshot into a stance. To expand that further make it 3 different selectable stances based on BaB (2 arrows, 3 arrows, 4 arrows) and put some negatives on it.

To add in Coldins idea a bit about the double strike ability make a percentage based on the stance you select.

Manyshot 1: While in this stance you fire 2 arrows at -2 to hit, grants a 2% chance of double strike, and a 30% reduction in movement speed.

Manyshot 2: While in this stance you fire 3 arrows at a -4 to hit, grants a 3% chance of double strike, and a 40% reduction in movement speed.

Manyshot 3: While in this stance you fire 4 arrows at a -6 to hit, grants a 4% chance of double strike, and a 50% reduction in movement speed.

Keep in mind I'm not suggesting 3 seperate feats, but 3 stances from the single feat based on BaB like the amount of arrows fired currently is based off BaB. This would allow the player to select how many arrows they fired in their manyshot stance.

[Xeraphim]

As has been stated time and time again over the last 4+ years, make manyshot into a stance. To expand that further make it 3 different selectable stances based on BaB (2 arrows, 3 arrows, 4 arrows) and put some negatives on it.

To add in Coldins idea a bit about the double strike ability make a percentage based on the stance you select.

(Edited to reflect the problems with the movement speed penalty idea)
Tempest/Kensai 1: While in this stance you hit faster/deal more damage than before, and take a 30% reduction in movement speed.

Tempest/Kensai 2: While in this stance you get even more attacks per round/deal more damage, and take a 40% reduction in movement speed.

Tempest and Kensai 3: While in this stance you deal even more DPS, while taking a 50% reduction in movement speed.

You clearly favor Melee, so I'll edit your quote to reflect your idea in a more revealing light.

Of course, we could also add toggles for melee that completely negate all movement for a 30 second period every 2 minutes while buffing their DPS considerably(after taking 50-75% of their attacks per round away first in a "stealth nerf", to bring melee back to the average DPS of Ranged)



Ranged Combat needs a complete retool and that's that.

Touch Attack Criticals, Manyshot Cooldown Reductions, faster shot rate per BAB, Naturalized Bow Use(more than 6 levels using a bow? Congrats! You are proficient with it if you weren't before. More than 18 levels with it as your primary? You clearly need a Proficiency III that grants more Doublestrike Bonus and alacrity)

[supp3nhuhn]

As has been stated time and time again over the last 4+ years, make manyshot into a stance. To expand that further make it 3 different selectable stances based on BaB (2 arrows, 3 arrows, 4 arrows) and put some negatives on it.

To add in Coldins idea a bit about the double strike ability make a percentage based on the stance you select.

Manyshot 1: While in this stance you fire 2 arrows at -2 to hit, grants a 2% chance of double strike, and a 30% reduction in movement speed.

Manyshot 2: While in this stance you fire 3 arrows at a -4 to hit, grants a 3% chance of double strike, and a 40% reduction in movement speed.

Manyshot 3: While in this stance you fire 4 arrows at a -6 to hit, grants a 4% chance of double strike, and a 50% reduction in movement speed.

Keep in mind I'm not suggesting 3 seperate feats, but 3 stances from the single feat based on BaB like the amount of arrows fired currently is based off BaB. This would allow the player to select how many arrows they fired in their manyshot stance.

Completely overpowered.

[LupusVai]

Oh yeah let them doublestrike nonstop at higher levels because they have a high BAB and shouldn't have to wait 2 minutes to do good ranged damage which won't run out like spell points do for casters.

/not signed

Take everything this guy says with a pinch of salt hes always trolling whenever he gets it handed to him in PvP.

[Angelus_dead]

This would normalize archery across the board, and allow ranged combat as a whole to receive an increase in speed.

That doesn't solve any big problem: if the devs felt that ranged combat needs a faster attack rate, they could do that directly. Make it Doublestrike is a detail that doesn't change the game balance.

What would be a benefit to changing Manyshot to a weak passive is to nerf the ability of Tempest Rangers to occasionally pull a bow and burn down a mob that's a bit difficult to reach. That could improve balance a bit, but is a lower priority. The real ranged fixes will lie elsewhere.

[Benjai]

I agree completely that manyshot needs to be changed for flat out removed. Its a severe case of "too many eggs in one basket" type deal. I've never seen in a game that a character has a 300% damage increase buff and that a character will have such a dichotomey between its powered and cooldown output.

It needs to be either nerfed to allow a more broad buff or it needs to be buffed to apply more evenly. Like say 2 arrows for 20 seconds every 60 seconds instead of 3 arrows for 20 seconds every 120 seconds.

Hit rating is a bad penalty to add to any buff. Either you have more hit than needed anyways and its no real drawback or your in the critical range of hit and the -4 really hurts.

And to the db that said ranged shouldn't be buffed because they also can melee. Are you kidding? Really? You actually believe that a character that builds to use a specific type of weapon should only use it 17% of the time? Are you kidding? Should your fighter only be allowed to use dual khopeshes for 17% of the time, otherwise having to switch to Longsword + Shield for the rest? Are you kidding?

[Stormanne]

Of course there is the possibility of separating the Tempest PrE from the AA and DS. Bring the game more in line with the ruleset. While in tabletop, you make the decision to go either melee focused or ranged focused at level two, here we could have it be tied to taking your prestige enhancements.

Say, once you go tempest; while still being proficient with a bow, your bonuses would be lower and Manyshot would have to be chosen as a feat instead of being a granted feat. And same would go if you focused on either of the ranged PrE's. You would still be proficient melee weapons, but would have to meet the regular minimum requirements and choose the feats when leveling up in order to max out the two weapon fighting chain. And, if you choose to take no PrE, then you would only get the basic granted feats free and then have to meet the minimum requirements for the higher tiers of the other granted ranger feats.

Any solution is probably not going to be perfect and will be viewed as a nerf by one side or the other.

Edit: Of course, the devs could do something that would make deciding to go melee focused or ranged focused at level two as per tabletop. At level two, instead of granting both the Two Weapon Fighting feat and Rapid Shot feat, have us players choose only one in the same manner we choose Class feats. Once that path is chosen, treat it similar to the way the Monk paths are done. If melee is chosen, give the two weapon fighting feats as we do now but none of the ranged feats. If ranged is chosen, give the ranged feats (Manyshot, shot on the run, Precision) as granted feats, but none of the two weapon fighting feats.

[Ginetti]

So, one of the biggest bonuses an archer gets is Manyshot. The ability to fire several arrows all at once. In fact, an archer using manyshot can deal some of the highest DPS in the game.

Unfortunately, because of this, any archer without Manyshot, or with it on cooldown, quickly sinks to some of the lowest DPS. It makes it incredibly difficult to buff archery though, since almost any buff will also buff the already powerful Manyshot.

So, I propose a significant change to Manyshot. Instead of it's current implementation, the feat would give a passive % increase to an archer's double strike bonus. This bonus could increase as a player's BaB increases, and would stack with other abilities that increase double strike chances. This would normalize archery across the board, and allow ranged combat as a whole to receive an increase in speed.

You don't need anymore DPS. You SHOULD be at the lowest end of the DPS pool. It's the trade-off for DPSing outside of melee range, where you avoid a vast majority of the damage.

[Angelus_dead]

You don't need anymore DPS. You SHOULD be at the lowest end of the DPS pool. It's the trade-off for DPSing outside of melee range, where you avoid a vast majority of the damage.

Actually they need more DPS, and need to be threatened with more damage.

Too many mobs are too easy to avoid completely by running or jumping in simple patterns.

[Ystradmynach]

You don't need anymore DPS. You SHOULD be at the lowest end of the DPS pool. It's the trade-off for DPSing outside of melee range, where you avoid a vast majority of the damage.

So are you saying wizards and sorcerers need to be nerfed then? Anyway, if your dps is so low that the combat style is effectively a joke and nobody uses it like it is for just about every type of ranged combat except for archery in the hands of someone who has all the right feats for it, then yes, you do need more dps. There is a difference between lowest end and far outlier that isn't even in the same league as the weakest melee dps.

The only time ranged realistically gets used is either with a bow in the hands of an Arcane Archer or sometimes a repeating crossbow in the hands of a mechanic, everything else is pretty much reserved for the few situations where you can't get into melee range.

[Benjai]

You don't need anymore DPS. You SHOULD be at the lowest end of the DPS pool. It's the trade-off for DPSing outside of melee range, where you avoid a vast majority of the damage.

So the advantage of range should be what exactly? Since they're supposed to do inferior damage yet have inferior defenses why should they be played again? If a melee is running with an intimitank or with CC and himself is in no real danger of getting hit should he then get a damage debuff since he's not in danger? There's a reason why tanks in other games don't do as much damage because if a class has superior damage AND defense then it invalidates everything else. Is that what your suggesting happen here? If your concerned about things like kiting then there are simple solutions like putting a snare on manyshot or giving bosses an undispellable and un-FoMable snare.