Noob Q: Why is a paladin better than a DM Cleric?

[FlyingTurtle]

This came up in another thread.

Just an example to get started: Consider a DM Cleric, with paladin-like stats, e.g. Drow Cleric 18/Fighter 2:

Str 14/Dex16/Con14/Int10/Wis8/Cha16 <-- probably not optimal but close enough, can have more wis, less cha, etc depend on tomes

All level ups into strength. Feats: Toughness, 3xTWF, PA, IC:Pierce ; Emp Heal, Quicken, Maximize (or Extend or Extra Turning).
Enhancements: Radiant Servant 2 and Divine Might III

Playstyle: Divine Power "always on". Divine Might for smackdowns, Healing as secondary role.

Compared with Paladin...

Cleric Advantages:
* Level 6-9 spells, 800 more SP
* Radiant Servant (Turns regenerate, healing bursts)
* Critical weakness: Low wis means cleric functionality can be disjuncted, also losing DP making it gimp.

Paladin Advantages:
* Paladin Capstone (+1d6 vs Evil, another +2d6 vs devils and demons)
* Knight of the Chalice (+4d6 vs devils and demons)
* Smite evils
* Max base AB (don't need to keep DP running, less vulnerable to disjunction)
* DM IV (+2 damage vs cleric's DM III)

It seems to me the paladin is sort of "special case useful" in terms of being a superb evil outsider-beater while the cleric is overall more effective against general foes. I'm probably wrong, educate me. Thanks.

[Stormanne]

With that build, you would not be able to cast spells, at least not well. A clerics spell point pool is based off of Wisdom, which yours is only 8 in that build. If you are intent on a battle cleric, drop his dex down to 12 (with items and mithril armor, you'll get all the AC you need), drop down your Cha to 12 (again, items will bump it up for intimidate/diplo/bluff), and put those freed up points into Wis.

[FlyingTurtle]

With that build, you would not be able to cast spells, at least not well. A clerics spell point pool is based off of Wisdom, which yours is only 8 in that build. If you are intent on a battle cleric, drop his dex down to 12 (with items and mithril armor, you'll get all the AC you need), drop down your Cha to 12 (again, items will bump it up for intimidate/diplo/bluff), and put those freed up points into Wis.

To clarify: I'm not looking for build advice here... Just wondering if a battle cleric is an easy mode paladin.

EDIT: In other words, what are the paladin's class strengths and how can we play to them? Clearly Divine Might isn't unique to Paladins, so...? E.g., Aranticus' post above is informative, thanks.

[phalaeo]

To clarify: I'm not looking for build advice here... Just wondering if a battle cleric is an easy mode paladin.

EDIT: In other words, what are the paladin's class strengths and how can we play to them? Clearly Divine Might isn't unique to Paladins, so...? E.g., Aranticus' post above is informative, thanks.

Battle Cleric is LESS of an Easy-mode Paladin, IMO.

In terms of your original question, I think that both are viable, it's just a matter of overcoming what role people expect you to play in a group.

I have a level 17 BC and although she is mostly run in guild, if I pug her, I make sure to tell the leader when applying that I consider myself melee and I am not a main healer.

[Seamonkeysix]

One thing you have to consider is what role will the party expect you to play. Not many parties will expect and 18/2 cleric/fighter to come in and not be a primary healer...even if you are decent in the DPS department. I am not saying it is right, or that a well built battle cleric can't do reasonable DPS. But the reality is that unless you are in a guild group, most parties will expect you to be a healer and healing = more focus on party, less focus on your DPS.

Divine Sacrifice and Smite Evil are also not trivial abilities. Well build paladins are going to get big numbers out of those things that clerics won't. However, clerics will get blade barriers and offensive spells, so the overall DPS could be very similar, depending on game play.

So I guess when you ask which is better, I am assuming you mean for the purpose of melee. In the end, the pally will be able to (and expected to) focus on DPS...the cleric will be expected to focus on healing.

[Steveohio]

Paladin advantages:
Slightly higher dps
Slightly more hp
slightly better saves
better tanking with PrC
good dps more on evil outsiders if PrC

Clerics advantages:
way better buffs
way better offensive spells
way better heals
better soloing
better group functions
Radiant aura
far more SP

[Hellllboy]

The only real relevant difference is the expectations your group will have of you.

You could build both to be effective combat players.

[Therigar]

My only significant contribution to this discussion is that if you are looking at the cleric as a battle cleric and not a healer then you can safely ignore complaints about WIS.

It seems to me that you (OP) are asking about functional difference between a paladin and a battlecleric and want to know if a battlecleric is an easy-button paladin. I think the answer is no. A battlecleric is a battlecleric and not an almost paladin. As such they have a whole different set of abilities. The two are not really comparable except that they can heal if needed -- and then not particularly well, but good enough to get through an emergency.

If a battlecleric takes heighten, spell focus and quicken they can cast some pretty mean blade barriers that most mobs thru normal/hard content can't contend with. Get some spell penetration going and they can get thru elite content. Of course that eats up a lot of feats and you still have the standard things like toughness or the TWF line to fit in. And, you probably want extend, maximize .... well, you get the picture.

Now, I run a drow battlecleric (well, I haven't used him in a long time, but he's on my account) and I like him a lot. But, I would never confuse him with a paladin. The two are just different.

[Aranticus]

Paladin advantages:
Slightly higher dps
Slightly more hp
slightly better saves
better tanking with PrC
good dps more on evil outsiders if PrC

Clerics advantages:
way better buffs
way better offensive spells
way better heals
better soloing
better group functions
Radiant aura
far more SP

with the majority of mobs being evil, the highlighted sentences are very misleading

[lord_of_rage]

Paladin advantages:
Slightly higher dps
Slightly more hp
slightly better saves
better tanking with PrC
good dps more on evil outsiders if PrC

Clerics advantages:
way better buffs
way better offensive spells
way better heals
better soloing
better group functions
Radiant aura
far more SP

You need to change slightly higher dps to much higher dps. As mentioned. A kotc has zeal and df going. Zeal gets a 10% doublestrike chance. On twf you will see triple smites. You have 12 exalted smites+ divine sacrifice. That is serious burst dps a cleric cannot match. And against outsiders you arnt even in the same league. The KOTC is a far better dps toon than a battle cleric.

[elujin]

while the cleric would be a nice fighter the paladin will out shine him with smites divine sacrifice and his pre also the personal heales are covered by lay on hands

fvs/monk 18/2 elf (look up inpacts build) would also be better at fighting and would be able to heal better with that cha and his larg mana pool.

i would switch to 12 con on a drow(and elf) is fairly acceptble just make sure you take thougness and all the racials move it to str or embey wis .

in the end though the pally will be better at beating things overall

the cleric will have more utility and spell choises you won't be using any spells with dc's but mebey mass wounding spells sounds intresting atleast .

i don't know how well the cleric would perform on healing but if its not to good don't join partys who look for a healer and let them know your bringging the pain and not the heals (at higher elvels you can use heal scroles i guess and aura)

[Aranticus]

Smite evil is underrated in many comparison. Sure you can use up 10+ smites quickly but if you count in divine sacrifice, it's about 2 minutes of burst dps. I did a tod earlier today and in part 2, without hate equipment or enhancements, I was able to pull agro off several capped well equipped barbs on my 18 pally. U are also forgetting zeal, which is a huge dps boost for pally. On my thf, nothing beats seeing 2 Crit smites doing 600+ each, twf pallys can hit up to 3 smites

[Emili]

Smite evil is underrated in many comparison. Sure you can use up 10+ smites quickly but if you count in divine sacrifice, it's about 2 minutes of burst dps. I did a tod earlier today and in part 2, without hate equipment or enhancements, I was able to pull agro off several capped well equipped barbs on my 18 pally. U are also forgetting zeal, which is a huge dps boost for pally. On my thf, nothing beats seeing 2 Crit smites doing 600+ each, twf pallys can hit up to 3 smites

Pally adds up very quickly on any evil ... once you get one with weapons of good is hard to pass up simple silver or cold iron weapons with some extra perks on them even. Zeal, DF and DM with smites can anialate a mob... am smiting over 600+ off Khopeshes against an evil outsider on a KOTC and does not fall far behind against just plain evil mob. An eSoS in the hands of a pally on evil is the highest potential that weapon can ever get.

Pally is "An active player's" toy... what I mean by that is you're more button mashing then most melee builds. Extend very good for your zeal and DF once you toss on DM and/or DS at will coupled with smites you see the bloody number climb quickly...

When it comes to ToD I get weary ... I drop my DPS (hold back) on Amy as I know for a fact the toon will rip agro if I leave her on the back of either boss and am hopped up the way I play her for something like Harry... The regular damage per crit hover bout 200+ before other procs then extra dice flying then toss some smites on top - zealed up with double-strikes occuring, you have to be sure the main tank is super tweaked up.

To answer the OP a pally is heavier melee... not to say FvS or Cleric are not good melee (I have a melee FvS btw) but in terms of DPS output between the two - even on non-EO the pally is heavier. What the Cleric/FvS offer is variety ... damage spells, better healing and supporting spells, etc... Pallies are built Str/Cha with a minor in Con/(Dex if planning twf) Wisdom is virtually a dumpstat on them... DM and Smites are CHA applicable Str the primary still when it comes to melee.

The harder parts of Cleric/FvS melee is the balancing of them, combat feats + casting feats and attempting to get enough of your secondary area to be functional at top epic levels. My BB on my casting cleric for instance does hit for over 400+ at times ... but BB is a spell where the mob must be moving around for it to tick - i.e. "How many times have you been told to stand still in a mobs BB when it went up?" Moving around too much while meleeing is DPS loss on melee (breaking chain) - they counter one another.

Do not get me wrong ... I love my melee FvS but come certain groups may find her stressful as people also expect a certain supportive role - High Healing - which compared to my casting spec'd cleric she's about half the capability there. In a good group she does fine, but in a not so good group teeters on almost inefficient. I've solo healed raids with her ... but still would not be my first choice to solo heal a raid with.

[LuckyLuke2]

This came up in another thread. Consider a DM Cleric, with paladin-like stats, e.g. Drow Cleric 18/Fighter 2:

Str 14/Dex16/Con14/Int10/Wis8/Cha16 <-- probably not optimal but close enough

All level ups into strength. Feats: Toughness, 3xTWF, PA, IC:Pierce ; Emp Heal, Quicken, Maximize (or Extend or Extra Turning).
Enhancements: Radiant Servant 2 and Divine Might III

Playstyle: Divine Power "always on". Divine Might for smackdowns, Healing as secondary role.

Compared with Paladin...

Cleric Advantages:
* Level 6-9 spells, 800 more SP
* Radiant Servant (Turns regenerate, healing bursts)
* Critical weakness: Low wis means cleric functionality can be disjuncted, also losing DP making it gimp.

Paladin Advantages:
* Paladin Capstone (+1d6 vs Evil, another +2d6 vs devils and demons)
* Knight of the Chalice (+4d6 vs devils and demons)
* Smite evils
* Max base AB (don't need to keep DP running, less vulnerable to disjunction)
* DM IV (+2 damage vs cleric's DM III)

It seems to me the paladin is sort of "special case useful" in terms of being a superb evil outsider-beater while the cleric is overall more effective against general foes. I'm probably wrong, educate me. Thanks.

A few remarks :

- you need a base WIS 10 + lvl to cast divine spells, so with a starting WIS of 8 you'll need to find 11 extra points to cast those lvl 9 spells (cleric wis +2, tome +2, item +6, excep +1 would do the trick though)
- all offensive spells other than BB can be thrown in the garbage can as your DC will be too low, but that's the main idea anyway
- your base con is the "minimum minimorum" for a melee class with a lower hit dice per level, so hp wise you will probably tag a bit behind (approx. 60 hp's)
- paladins get a boss beater weapon for free at lvl 14, you will probably only be able to craft yours (unless TR) at lvl 17-18
- paladins will tend to keep zeal & divine favor up and running with divine sacrifice as their primary attack, which will increase their damage output
- exalted smite is a great instant damage burst, so vs a boss mob your battlecleric's melee damage output will be rather insignificant (same STR add, same weapon add, no "extra" bonusses for the cleric other than a bb)
- paladins are great against evil outsiders but these are what you will encounter a lot past lvl 16

A wf'ed FVS can do everything this battlecleric build does, without having to invest in 3 TWF feats (or THF feats) and with a higher starting STR & CON).

[Aranticus]

Not all a clerics offensive spell is dc based. Searing light may be low level but it's quite useful in some situations. U can chain searing, deitific vengeance, etc to burst nuke

The pally boss beater is a nice weapon but is only slightly better than a met pg or if really lucky, behind a holy silver of pure good. Also, for a vet L14 is usually when they craft greensteels

A few remarks :

- you need a base WIS 10 + lvl to cast divine spells, so with a starting WIS of 8 you'll need to find 11 extra points to cast those lvl 9 spells (cleric wis +2, tome +2, item +6, excep +1 would do the trick though)
- all offensive spells other than BB can be thrown in the garbage can as your DC will be too low, but that's the main idea anyway
- your base con is the "minimum minimorum" for a melee class with a lower hit dice per level, so hp wise you will probably tag a bit behind (approx. 60 hp's)
- paladins get a boss beater weapon for free at lvl 14, you will probably only be able to craft yours (unless TR) at lvl 17-18
- paladins will tend to keep zeal & divine favor up and running with divine sacrifice as their primary attack, which will increase their damage output
- exalted smite is a great instant damage burst, so vs a boss mob your battlecleric's melee damage output will be rather insignificant (same STR add, same weapon add, no "extra" bonusses for the cleric other than a bb)
- paladins are great against evil outsiders but these are what you will encounter a lot past lvl 16

A wf'ed FVS can do everything this battlecleric build does, without having to invest in 3 TWF feats (or THF feats) and with a higher starting STR & CON).

[LuckyLuke2]

The pally boss beater is a nice weapon but is only slightly better than a met pg or if really lucky, behind a holy silver of pure good. Also, for a vet L14 is usually when they craft greensteels

My pally indeed has a GS MinI falchion due to the non-availabilty of the holy sword variant for it, otherwise I would not have crafted it.

For a vet with a heavy ingreds bank crafting at lvl 14 is a possibility if it's a guild run (you won't get into a PuG at lvl 14). For a vet with 10 toons that ingreds bank will be a lot lighter, especially for the tier 3 upgrade. For EU refugees the ingreds bank was pulled into a black hole, never to return.

[emptysands]

This came up in another thread. Consider a DM Cleric, with paladin-like stats, e.g. Drow Cleric 18/Fighter 2:

Str 14/Dex16/Con14/Int10/Wis8/Cha16 <-- probably not optimal but close enough

All level ups into strength. Feats: Toughness, 3xTWF, PA, IC:Pierce ; Emp Heal, Quicken, Maximize (or Extend or Extra Turning).
Enhancements: Radiant Servant 2 and Divine Might III

Playstyle: Divine Power "always on". Divine Might for smackdowns, Healing as secondary role.

Compared with Paladin...

Cleric Advantages:
* Level 6-9 spells, 800 more SP
* Radiant Servant (Turns regenerate, healing bursts)
* Critical weakness: Low wis means cleric functionality can be disjuncted, also losing DP making it gimp.

Paladin Advantages:
* Paladin Capstone (+1d6 vs Evil, another +2d6 vs devils and demons)
* Knight of the Chalice (+4d6 vs devils and demons)
* Smite evils
* Max base AB (don't need to keep DP running, less vulnerable to disjunction)
* DM IV (+2 damage vs cleric's DM III)

It seems to me the paladin is sort of "special case useful" in terms of being a superb evil outsider-beater while the cleric is overall more effective against general foes. I'm probably wrong, educate me. Thanks.

HP: Paladin Toughness, d2 difference for HP. So at least 60 HP. Divine Grace. TOD set bonuses. Zeal. eSOS DR breaking with capstone. Holy Sword. Martial Weapons.

[MrWizard]

DM cleric?

dungeon master?
Death machine?

Never heard the term before, where did that come from?

[Aranticus]

DM cleric?

dungeon master?
Death machine?

Never heard the term before, where did that come from?

Divine might

[taurean430]

This came up in another thread.

Just an example to get started: Consider a DM Cleric, with paladin-like stats, e.g. Drow Cleric 18/Fighter 2:

Str 14/Dex16/Con14/Int10/Wis8/Cha16 <-- probably not optimal but close enough, can have more wis, less cha, etc depend on tomes

All level ups into strength. Feats: Toughness, 3xTWF, PA, IC:Pierce ; Emp Heal, Quicken, Maximize (or Extend or Extra Turning).
Enhancements: Radiant Servant 2 and Divine Might III

Playstyle: Divine Power "always on". Divine Might for smackdowns, Healing as secondary role.

Compared with Paladin...

Cleric Advantages:
* Level 6-9 spells, 800 more SP
* Radiant Servant (Turns regenerate, healing bursts)
* Critical weakness: Low wis means cleric functionality can be disjuncted, also losing DP making it gimp.

Paladin Advantages:
* Paladin Capstone (+1d6 vs Evil, another +2d6 vs devils and demons)
* Knight of the Chalice (+4d6 vs devils and demons)
* Smite evils
* Max base AB (don't need to keep DP running, less vulnerable to disjunction)
* DM IV (+2 damage vs cleric's DM III)

It seems to me the paladin is sort of "special case useful" in terms of being a superb evil outsider-beater while the cleric is overall more effective against general foes. I'm probably wrong, educate me. Thanks.

Palladins get an extra 10d6 damage and +4 to-hit vs. evil outsiders.

Paladins can expend 1 hp and 5 sp and the divine sacrifice attack gets 9d6 light damage and increases the crit multiplier of the weapon by 1.

Paladins can At 20 paladin, these add 67 base damage to an attack. Increases crit multiplier by 2. Increases threat range by 2. Gives you 2x crit modifier to-hit.

Paladins get Weapons of Good: Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction, deals 1 to 6 additional holy damage against all evil opponents, and deals an additional 2 to 12 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders.\n\nD&D Dice: Weapons you wield deal an extra 1d6 holy damage to evil opponents and deal 2d6 additional light damage against undead and evil outsiders.

This also allows unique ability to use any weapon and still bypass the DR silver/good or cold iron/good of devil and demon raid bosses.

My pally is not geared yet. He has only done 3 TOD's. In two of them, I've been told to back off of the bosses and to not use my Smites/Divine Sacrifices until it's safe to do so. It's because he'll steal aggro off of the tank on either boss. Paladins are an excellent dps class, but make poor healers imo.

My favored soul can dps with his lightning2's/Min2's. As much as I love playing him he is constantly stigmatized by other players with dumb questions regarding whether he can heal a party of six or a raid. He can indeed heal any raid in this game so far without issue. But he can also go offensive and whoop on bosses and trash mobs. He's an excellent healer, but his dps pales in comparison to the pally. FvS= great utility and awesome multitasking when it hits the fan.

But a paladin, when built well, is top end dps. Much moreso than any 'battle cleric' And let me say that I love playing my battle cleric and exceeding expectations and squashing preconceived notions on the regular. This and I am a proponent of what I consider to be active clericing as opposed to healbotting.