Max AC tank, is it useful?

[grimbot]

You need to be able to dps more. Here is what my high ac intimitank looks like. I spend most of my time dual wielding dpsing, dropping ac gear for more dps gear.

Dont make the mistake of thinking high intimi/high ac is going to be fun to play, its not. You'll be a pile on in 99% of the content you run if you cant hit anything.

I would take Quick's advice to heart on this. He helped my figure out my build on a 18 ftr/2 pal intimi-tank, and it's working great so far. I do spend most of my time DPS'ing. I can drop in to tank mode when needed, and when I don't I am still able to go on a killin spree.

BTW Quick, thanks again for the advice on my tank. It's a fun character, and I have received several compliments on the quality of the build.

[fedechicco]

I would take Quick's advice to heart on this.

Actually i'm trying, his build ends with 34 STR unbuffed starting from 16, and that's the source of the extra dps (mine ends with 24).

for str:
16 base + 5 level + 1 human adaptability + 6 gear + 2 tome = 30 str that's 4 less than 34.
Probably you used + 4 tome and +2 exceptional from GS too, but that's a little too much for me :-)

More:
for dex:
16 base + 2 tome + 6 gear = 24 instead of 26, again a +4 tome maybe

for cha:
14 base + 2 tome + 6 gear = 22 instead of 27 (here i really dunno how you made it)

I can surely drop a little bit of dex for some str, but still your is an uber build while mine will be limited to +2 tomes.
Did you level the stats on STR?
Did you use lots of +4 tomes?
If i can achieve the same AC with 10 more point on STR it's stupid for me not to do it...

[Quikster]

Actually i'm trying, his build ends with 34 STR unbuffed starting from 16, and that's the source of the extra dps (mine ends with 24).

for str:
16 base + 5 level + 1 human adaptability + 6 gear + 2 tome = 30 str that's 4 less than 34.
Probably you used + 4 tome and +2 exceptional from GS too, but that's a little too much for me :-)

More:
for dex:
16 base + 2 tome + 6 gear = 24 instead of 26, again a +4 tome maybe

for cha:
14 base + 2 tome + 6 gear = 22 instead of 27 (here i really dunno how you made it)

I can surely drop a little bit of dex for some str, but still your is an uber build while mine will be limited to +2 tomes.
Did you level the stats on STR?
Did you use lots of +4 tomes?
If i can achieve the same AC with 10 more point on STR it's stupid for me not to do it...

I'm on the go right now, but str and dex only have +2's atm.

its more than a few points of str as well o have several feats / AP's spent on dps

I believe str is 16 + 2 tome + 5 levels + 2 fighter + 1 human + 1 exceptional (tod ring) + 7 item.

Cha I think is 14 + 3 tome + 7 item+ 3 exceptional. I only wear + 7 item & +3 exceptional in epic DQ and elite hound.

Yes that build has a ton of gear and is a double tr. My point wasn't to say I'm uber and your build sux. It was to show how I attacked the issue of a high ac / intim build.

[EKKM]

Since with the last correction the intimidate is grown to 63 with initial 16 CHA, do you guys all agree that losing 1 AC and some 30 HP is worth +3 intimidate (from 63 to 66)?

It would be 20 hp.

I believe you need a score in th low 70s to no-fail some of the raid bosses on elite. If you don't plan to play elite raids or epic then your score is fine.

[MrWizard]

whatever you end up doing, once you get the few items you need it will be a great play at end game.

you should have lots of fun with your ac tank. Once you get it up there it will never be the same playing something that gets hit all the time.

[Odium]

These are what i miss on my ranger (+13 dex bonus), so if i lower the initial dex of just 1 i can get 13 int (on a drow) to get CE.
This would make me fly from my 55 AC to 68 AC (but with -5 to hit roll and with less DPS due to AC greensteel instead of DPS greensteel) on the tempest.

Anyway this is a pretty great combo, i'll use it for my next tempest for sure! Greetings to Odium!

With your high dex even with the -5 to hit, you are still only going to miss on a 1 or 2. Also, you really are not giving that much up on the greensteel. You lose a blast (on natural 20, do more damage) but gain the 4 ac. Its a nice trade off.

As long as the barbarians and fighters are checking themselves a bit (i.e. not going full out frenzied/boosting/all out powersurge) i find that you can hold aggro just fine. I have tanked VOD on normal and had the same stonskin last the entire fight, meaning i got hit less than 15 times. Like i said, I have yet to try it on Elite, but once recitation is fixed, i think i will give it a shot.

[Quikster]

Hello, I'm looking for a build to TR my ranger, and I wanted to tank for a while.

Mine was a ranger splashed monk with 55 AC selfbuffed in defensive fighting, so i'm quite used to a good AC, but now I'd like an outstanding AC.

I was trying to do something like this:

Dwarf Fighter lvl 20, with 6 armor mastery (fighter & dwarf) + 3 staltwart defender + 3 tower shield mastery = +10 max dex bonus with a fullplate and a mithril towershield.
You can get 6 from fighter/dwarf enhancements, and 2 from stalwart defender enhancements. I would prolly only buy 2 of each fighter and dwarf personally as 12 ap for 2 ac is pretty expensive. If you tr again, you can get +1 from the fighter past life. So with 1 from dt plate, 3 from fighter, 3 from dwarf, 2 from stalwart you'll be sitting at 9. MTS base is 4, + 3 from stalwart enhancements and all 3 ts enhancements will be 10. You can at the least drop the last ts enhancement that will allow you to pick up the other toughness enhance you said you want. Personally I would go after the epic von shield. Its not hard to get if you do enough raids, you can slot it with +2 luck and +7 enhancement. Gives you the same ac and you can drop all the ts enhancements. (obviously that will be at lvl 20, but I still think its a good idea.)

The stats for this toon will be
16 str + 2 tome + 6 object
16 dex + 2 tome + 6 object + 5 level increase + 1 exceptional bonus on dragontouched armor I still think its a bad idea to put your lvl ups in dex. Put them in str, use DAxes with enhancements. Recycling your rapiers will not be the same dps as your ranger was as you wont have any favored enemies.
18 con + 2 tome + 6 object + 2 dwarf enhancements
12 int + 2 tome
8 wis
6 cha + 2 tome + 6 object

The ending stat for this toon can be (with appropriate equipment and +2 tomes and +1 exceptional bonus on dex):
24 str
30 dex (+10 dex bonus)
28 con ( about 450 HP with toughness and all, without minos)
14 int (to max out intimidate + CE)
8 wis
14 cha (for intimidate)
If you swap your level ups into str, your stats look pretty good. You can drop int a bit, but 12 starting is fine, and its nice to have the extra skill point on a fighter. HP will look like this:

200 fighter
180 con mod
20 ddo
10 AA favor
30 gfl
22 toughness
24 toughness item (minos or other)
60 enhancements (thats if you can get 3 of each fighter/dwarf, -10 for ea you cant take)
___________
542 standing.

582 in Stance

you can add a shroud item for 45 as well as +1 exceptional and lotd for another 20.


and the total unbuffed AC should be something like this:

10 base
+ 10 dex bonus will only be 9
+ 15 dragontouched armor (with levik's tier)
+ 9 levik's mithril tower shield
+ 4 insight bonus (due to GS)
+ 5 CE
+ 4 Staltwart defencer stance (they told me it stacks with CE)
+ 5 deflection protection gear
+ 1 dodge feat
+ 3 staltwart defender enhancements
+ 3 dodge feat of chattering ring
+ 2 chaos guard
+ 1 alchemical on armor you can put this on a shield as well, for +2 evens out the -1 for your calc'd dex bonus)
+2 tod set. Gives +2 ac as well as a bit of hate, and a slot for a +2 stat. I did dex. This will help offset taking your levels in str for a net loss of 3 dex. Add a set of epic spectral gloves and put +1 on those and your only -1 of your calc'd dex mod, drink a yugo pot for the extra or score a +3 tome.
= 72 unbuffed 74 if you get a tod set. You can get epic armor for the max dex bonus if you get the other epic items.

+ 5 natural of barkskin (due to ranger past life)
= 77 self buffed standing

+ 6 paladin's aura
+ 1 haste
4 bardsong
2 cleric reicitation
3 halfling buff
1 stacking haste from air guard if you go x3 air on your shroud cha skill item (yes it stacks with haste spell )

= 84 party buffed standing 94 with your calcs, 96 with tod set.

+ 5 blocking ( i thought it was 2 but everybody says it's 5)
= 89 party buffed while tanking 99 with extra buffs you forgot, and 101 with tod set. Obviously you wont always have all those buffs, so likely you'll fall somewhere in that range. You can add dps gear to your set up depending on buffs. For example, on normal tod, 75 ac is the breaking point against horoth. So if you find yourself at 80 you can drop ce and put on PA. Or if youre at 83 you can do PA and drop the chatt ring for shintao set with +2 exceptional str. Obviously this will vary just something to keep in mind.

Due to the very low strength I'll recycle my ranger tempest GS rapiers when I'll need to do dps, with weapon finesse and all the TWF feats they should do fine as they did on my dex based tempest. Bad idea as I mentioned above. Go Daxe with damage enhancements. Find a way
I cannot put the fighter str enhancements due to the fact that i need all APs just to take the full package of armor + shield mastery + statwart defence + intimidate + toughness (and still i have to renounce to some toughness). Once again, bad idea. Find a way to fit in at least the first 2 enhancements. Trading dwarven armor mastery III for 2 points of str is worth it.

Intimidate will be something like this:

23 points
+ 2 cha stat You can craft an exeptional cha weapon for turtle tanking needs
+ 13 gear go ahead and count +15. You can get that on raid items if you cant afford random ones.
+ 2 bullheaded
+ 3 intimidation feat
+ 4 fighter enhancement
+ 6 stalt ward defender enhancement
+ 6 GS charisma exceptional object
+2 luck form hogf or epic slot
= 59 unbuffed +5 from a bit better gear

+ 4 GH
+2 luck (cleric) if you dont get an item
+2 bard song
+2 monk (harder to keep up)
+3 house D pot (You can farm for the collectables for these easily in GH or in the Subterraine)
= 63 party buffed 71 with some better gear and buffs

Now that i posted the build, i have a few question, because i never never played as tank before:

1) Is 63 party buffed intimidate good enough? If no, how can i achieve a better intimidate with a dwarf? I'd like to think that if you wanna intimitank there are solutions other than being human (or half-elf within a month) or using all your stats in charisma. 80 is the magic number currently. 79 gets epic dq, 80 gets elite hound. Other bosses are within the range I posted on your intimi breakdown.

2) Is all that AC even useful? I'm used to fight harry or sully with approximately 55 AC, and i take damage like everyone else does, a friend of mine has a very good rogue/assassin with a desperate 28 AC and he takes almost the same damage. If I had 89 AC and blocking, would this damage be much less? Yes and no. Some bosses you will take less damage, others it will be hard to tell the difference. Over all I like having ac, but its certainly a niche build here in ddo and not required

3) This build will end up with a pretty good fortitude and reflex saves, but with a very low will. Is this going to make me fail hard? You can take a few paly levels, force of personality or both if you are concerned about your will save. Most of the time its not a huge issue, rarely in raids, a bit more often in epic quests

4) This build will end up with a good reflex save but without evasion at all. Is this a problem? Gear can make up most of the difference

Since I'm a tanking noob, any suggestion is higly appreciated, I'm afraid of failing this because i won't be able to reroll since it's a TR...

30 dex with weapon finesse is barely enough. You would be better off with a 26 str and daxes. There are many more ways to buff str than dex to give you a better to hit. Adding defensive stance alone gives you +4 str.

Other comments in green. I suggested a lot of hard to get items. I didnt do this because you need them, but to show you potential and give you something else to think about.

[Astraghal]

You have to be careful about taking some of the advice given in these kinds of threads. People will factor in things like epic gear, +3 tomes and past life feats to make up the numbers you see.

You may or may not ever see some of those items.

When planning your intimidate, you might want to check what the next highest raid boss DC is below elite hound and epic dq2. There is a thread on intimidate DC's somewhere, but it's not comprehensive. IIRC you will need to get intimidate to at least 70.

I wouldn't factor paladin aura or bard songs in your everyday AC, as more often than not in random pugs they will not be available.

Bard songs are nice, if the bard remembers to refresh them, which they often don't and you will only have a few minutes left on it by the time the mobs are swinging at you.

The same goes for short term buffs like recitation, it's only useful if the cleric remembers to cast it again after it runs out, or you can UMD it off a scroll before big fights.

The problem with AC is that where it really counts, in elite high level content, you really do need a ranger barkskin, bard song, haste always up, recitation at regular intervals, a paladin standing nearby etc., to have a high enough AC (mid-high 80's) that you can hit the mobs back and still not get hit very often.

I have not yet found a comprehensive thread outlining the AC levels required for each type of high level mob, in order to be able to plan a decent AC around.

Having +4 insight on your weapon, you will notice those elite devils and orthons high hitpoints go down VERY slowly, especially with a low STR. You could very easily die to a small group of them, even with 80 AC.

[diamabel]

As a sidenote. Even if you push your AC to a high number you can't nullify natural 20s. That means there will always be a chance of at least 5% of getting hit per attack that was directed at you. The more attacks are directed at you the higher the chance of getting hit (see decision tree).

Others may have already tested what a suitable AC is. But as some variables are not known (unless you have a look at the server side) one can only guess what a useful AC is and what is simply a waste of time.

[elraido]

As a sidenote. Even if you push your AC to a high number you can't nullify natural 20s. That means there will always be a chance of at least 5% of getting hit per attack that was directed at you. The more attacks are directed at you the higher the chance of getting hit (see decision tree).

Others may have already tested what a suitable AC is. But as some variables are not known (unless you have a look at the server side) one can only guess what a useful AC is and what is simply a waste of time.

Yeah but there isn't an exponential number of bad guys swinging at you...it is a finite number. An 80's ac is worthwhile in most any quest except for epic...

[Quikster]

You have to be careful about taking some of the advice given in these kinds of threads. People will factor in things like epic gear, +3 tomes and past life feats to make up the numbers you see.
If they are citing these things they are making up nothing, they are detailing how they get it. The ac I have broken down in my build thread is exactly that, a break down of my ac, not some made up theoretical ac, my ac. This guy is planning on tr'ing the largest/least payoff grind in the game, I see no reason not to include epic gear that can be had in a matter of days, or +3 tomes that can drop in a single, easy to solo raid.

You may or may not ever see some of those items. Obviously. He is quoting a tr and a chattering ring however, I think stating that a past life feat, or a +3 tome can help him get a number. BTW, the build he was questioning the str and dex on has no +3 tomes in either of those stats

When planning your intimidate, you might want to check what the next highest raid boss DC is below elite hound and epic dq2. There is a thread on intimidate DC's somewhere, but it's not comprehensive. IIRC you will need to get intimidate to at least 70.

I wouldn't factor paladin aura or bard songs in your everyday AC, as more often than not in random pugs they will not be available.

Bard songs are nice, if the bard remembers to refresh them, which they often don't and you will only have a few minutes left on it by the time the mobs are swinging at you.

The same goes for short term buffs like recitation, it's only useful if the cleric remembers to cast it again after it runs out, or you can UMD it off a scroll before big fights. when a main tank is using ac as his defense, he should be reminding people to refesh these buffs. +2 for recitation is virtually a given as almost every healing class build has it memed. +4 ac from a bard is always applicable when a bard is in the group. Max paly aura and other buffs are very situational, and I usually show them as a stars aligned ac. That said, he included it in his breakdown, so I used it. I have a guildie whos main is a dos III paly, we raid together all the time. I usually have +6 aura ac when I raid on my tank, whos to say he doesnt as well. Your point is well taken, but a little extreme. Recitation, bard song, ranger bark are all easy to sustain in raid situations.

The problem with AC is that where it really counts, in elite high level content, you really do need a ranger barkskin, bard song, haste always up, recitation at regular intervals, a paladin standing nearby etc., to have a high enough AC (mid-high 80's) that you can hit the mobs back and still not get hit very often. not necessarily. I can self buff to the 80's, any group buffs i get are a bonus.

I have not yet found a comprehensive thread outlining the AC levels required for each type of high level mob, in order to be able to plan a decent AC around. thats because you really cant break down ac per level. Different quests have different mobs with different stats. Most ac breakdowns are quoted per adventure area (ie: Gianthold, Sands, Vale, Amrath, etc.

Having +4 insight on your weapon, you will notice those elite devils and orthons high hitpoints go down VERY slowly, especially with a low STR. You could very easily die to a small group of them, even with 80 AC. Not true at all. If using a min II weapon ( like against elite raid bosses) losing the third tier acid damage means nothing at all. Losing +4 ac on a max ac build is huge. There is nowhere else you can put +4 ac on a max ac defender, the choice is easy.

In lime

[Quikster]

As a sidenote. Even if you push your AC to a high number you can't nullify natural 20s. That means there will always be a chance of at least 5% of getting hit per attack that was directed at you. The more attacks are directed at you the higher the chance of getting hit (see decision tree).

Others may have already tested what a suitable AC is. But as some variables are not known (unless you have a look at the server side) one can only guess what a useful AC is and what is simply a waste of time.

There are ways to test without being on the server side. Its been done since ddo came out. Most numbers for normal raids are commonly known by most people that spend time building for ac.

[Astraghal]

My response in lime..

You have to be careful about taking some of the advice given in these kinds of threads. People will factor in things like epic gear, +3 tomes and past life feats to make up the numbers you see.

If they are citing these things they are making up nothing, they are detailing how they get it. The ac I have broken down in my build thread is exactly that, a break down of my ac, not some made up theoretical ac, my ac.

By that, I mean meeting them or attaining them, not fabricating them.

It's also interesting to note that the build you used as an example is twice TR'd and has more build points to go around than the OP.

I see no reason not to include epic gear that can be had in a matter of days, or +3 tomes that can drop in a single, easy to solo raid.

Some people grind epic content for months on end and never get what they want.

Some people never see the +3 tome they want drop, even on their 20th, 40th or 60th completion.

These aren't things you can work towards, you either get lucky or you don't. That's why I think it's unreasonable to include them in the numbers for a first attempt at a particular build. Sure, they might get there in the end but it could be 6-12 months after they have capped and gotten all their other gear.

Having said that, there appears to be a number of epic items being used in the build you linked.

I wouldn't factor paladin aura or bard songs in your everyday AC, as more often than not in random pugs they will not be available.

Bard songs are nice, if the bard remembers to refresh them, which they often don't and you will only have a few minutes left on it by the time the mobs are swinging at you.

The same goes for short term buffs like recitation, it's only useful if the cleric remembers to cast it again after it runs out, or you can UMD it off a scroll before big fights.

when a main tank is using ac as his defense, he should be reminding people to refesh these buffs. +2 for recitation is virtually a given as almost every healing class build has it memed. +4 ac from a bard is always applicable when a bard is in the group. Max paly aura and other buffs are very situational, and I usually show them as a stars aligned ac. That said, he included it in his breakdown, so I used it. I have a guildie whos main is a dos III paly, we raid together all the time. I usually have +6 aura ac when I raid on my tank, whos to say he doesnt as well. Your point is well taken, but a little extreme. Recitation, bard song, ranger bark are all easy to sustain in raid situations.

That's all very fine if you are always running with the same people from your guild and you can guarantee having a competent cleric, ranger, bard and paladin around to keep your AC buffed constantly. However, for most random pug groups this is not going to be the case. I'd say the majority of the population of DDO players spend at least half their time in pugs. In those situations, AC is going to be significantly less when not including short term or 'stars aligning' buffs. The OP needs to take this into consideration when adding up the numbers.

The problem with AC is that where it really counts, in elite high level content, you really do need a ranger barkskin, bard song, haste always up, recitation at regular intervals, a paladin standing nearby etc., to have a high enough AC (mid-high 80's) that you can hit the mobs back and still not get hit very often.

not necessarily. I can self buff to the 80's, any group buffs i get are a bonus.

I assume that includes burning through potions, scrolls and boosts every 30-80 seconds to sustain? Does that include a shield? Is blocking included? Epic items? Past life feats? I would be interested to see the breakdown of that.

Having +4 insight on your weapon, you will notice those elite devils and orthons high hitpoints go down VERY slowly, especially with a low STR. You could very easily die to a small group of them, even with 80 AC.

Not true at all. If using a min II weapon ( like against elite raid bosses) losing the third tier acid damage means nothing at all. Losing +4 ac on a max ac build is huge.

I'm not disputing that losing +4 insight AC will make a huge difference, I'm saying that it's not the best choice of weapon in a lot of situations. I use one and it DOES take a while to beat devils and orthons down with in elite amrath quests, where in most cases a vorpal would be a much better choice.

There is nowhere else you can put +4 ac on a max ac defender, the choice is easy.

You can put the +4 insight on dragontouched plate and free up the main hand for better situational weapons.


So I think it needs to be stated from the outset, when potential numbers are cited in advice threads, that attaining them will require investing a huge amount of time, effort, luck and resources into aquiring the best gear available in the game, possible multiple reincarnations, including past life feats and extra build points, while also having access to an ideal static group. Unless all these criteria are being met, your build will probably not live up to your expectations.

[lugoman]

Note you get some max dex bonuses (both armor and shield) with stalwart defender so I dont think you need all the enhancements. Also with u7 the all 4 fighter intim enhancements will cost only 4 ap instead of 10, freeing up more ap for damage.

Also I would think twice about maxing dex. I have 32 str and still miss a a bit in higher level content (at least compared to my kensei fighter).

[Quikster]

My response in lime..





By that, I mean meeting them or attaining them, not fabricating them.

It's also interesting to note that the build you used as an example is twice TR'd and has more build points to go around than the OP.

[color=red]Which I stated. It wasnt a build he should follow, it was so he could see how I did it. I did the same build with 34 points with a few modifications, it played almost exactly the same. More build points in this case translates into 1 str/dex/con/or cha, not a huge deal. Someone spouting off as much as you are about whats realistic should realize that.[/red]

Some people grind epic content for months on end and never get what they want.
I think you should indicate which items you refer too. All the items I have are fairly easy achieved with a few months of questing, if not much much less.

Some people never see the +3 tome they want drop, even on their 20th, 40th or 60th completion.
Very few, and in that case, we are talking about 1 point difference, once again, not game breaking. Especially in the case I was referring to, lvl ups in str rather than dex. Oh by the way, 2 +3 tomes on that build I linked, 0 +4's

These aren't things you can work towards, you either get lucky or you don't. That's why I think it's unreasonable to include them in the numbers for a first attempt at a particular build. Sure, they might get there in the end but it could be 6-12 months after they have capped and gotten all their other gear.
Once again, if they have all the other gear, 1 point isnt game breaking. I think its fine to include them in builds. It prolly wont be too long before you start seeing unbound +3's or have them available in the store

Having said that, there appears to be a number of epic items being used in the build you linked. Yes and those items allow me to tank raids twf instead of with a shield, which i didnt suggest to the OP because he doesnt have those items. I never once said he needed to follow my build, I gave him a template he could use, as the one he is using is going to be bad. Not because he doesnt have epic items, but because he is using a fighter for a weapon finesse build. If you could get that through your head here, you would realize what I was doing instead of getting hung up on the fact that my fighter is better geared than his, which in your mind somehow disqualifies me from giving him advice on his build.





That's all very fine if you are always running with the same people from your guild and you can guarantee having a competent cleric, ranger, bard and paladin around to keep your AC buffed constantly. However, for most random pug groups this is not going to be the case. I'd say the majority of the population of DDO players spend at least half their time in pugs. In those situations, AC is going to be significantly less when not including short term or 'stars aligning' buffs. The OP needs to take this into consideration when adding up the numbers.

really? I have pugged a lot, and I mean a lot, on every class in the game save ranger, and I can tell you that the norm is if you need a buff, they give you that buff, and usually many more than you need or asked for. Maybe you should pug with different people, because in 3 years I have only had problems getting buffs in my guild runs.



I assume that includes burning through potions, scrolls and boosts every 30-80 seconds to sustain? Does that include a shield? Is blocking included? Epic items? Past life feats? I would be interested to see the breakdown of that.

[color=red] theres a break down in my thread. 78 twf self buffed ac, sustainable as long as I have haste clickies and recitation scrolls. Both of which are easily duplicated in a raid situation with party members casting the aoe for minutes at a time. And when I ask for another it is recast for several minutes at a time.
[/color=red]



I'm not disputing that losing +4 insight AC will make a huge difference, I'm saying that it's not the best choice of weapon in a lot of situations. I use one and it DOES take a while to beat devils and orthons down with in elite amrath quests, where in most cases a vorpal would be a much better choice.

Really? On a min II? hmmph, guess you need to look at whats on which tiers and what mobs are immune to which. If you need full dps, pull out your lit II's.

You can put the +4 insight on dragontouched plate and free up the main hand for better situational weapons.
sorry DT is not a max ac fullplate. If it was my answer might be different.

So I think it needs to be stated from the outset, when potential numbers are cited in advice threads, that attaining them will require investing a huge amount of time, effort, luck and resources into aquiring the best gear available in the game, possible multiple reincarnations, including past life feats and extra build points, while also having access to an ideal static group. Unless all these criteria are being met, your build will probably not live up to your expectations.

When I started throwing out build numbers I was very clear to include a post which has a breakdown of all the gear and tomes used, not sure why its so hard for someone to say, "I aint never getting a +2 tome for str, so thats -1 for me"

As I said I had the same build with 34 points, no past life, all +2 tomes, I think Im more than qualified to give this guy a bit of advice here, what you are doing is hating for no reason I can see. I didnt once mislead, insult, or belittle the OP, but you are basically saying that my numbers are misleading because I have epic gear, when the gear list clearly states what is epic and what isnt. Try coming up with something useful for the posters build, or start your own thread about elite gearing hate.

[Astraghal]

When I started throwing out build numbers I was very clear to include a post which has a breakdown of all the gear and tomes used, not sure why its so hard for someone to say, "I aint never getting a +2 tome for str, so thats -1 for me"

As I said I had the same build with 34 points, no past life, all +2 tomes, I think Im more than qualified to give this guy a bit of advice here, what you are doing is hating for no reason I can see. I didnt once mislead, insult, or belittle the OP, but you are basically saying that my numbers are misleading because I have epic gear, when the gear list clearly states what is epic and what isnt. Try coming up with something useful for the posters build, or start your own thread about elite gearing hate.

There's no need to get upset, my initial response in this thread wasn't directed towards you. I was only commenting that what qualifies as a meaningful AC can vary widely in different situations and gear is only a part of that.

These facts remain.

The combination of incrimental variables in gear, tomes and reincarnations already discussed, do add up to make a real difference in a build once you factor in slot consolidation, build point distribution and enhancement point allocation.

Running content with an ideal group will significantly cut down on grind and guarantee situational buffs.

In a pug group you may not have a bard, paladin or ranger. Even if you have a bard they might not keep their songs up. The cleric might not have or refresh recitation. You swap out your +4 insight weapon and stop blocking to use a wand or scroll. You are potentially down by 20+ AC in a worst case scenario.

Which brings me back to my original point, one has to be careful when calculating a useful AC, it can be very situational.

[Quikster]

There's no need to get upset, my initial response in this thread wasn't directed towards you. I was only commenting that what qualifies as a meaningful AC can vary widely in different situations and gear is only a part of that.

These facts remain.

The combination of incrimental variables in gear, tomes and reincarnations already discussed, do add up to make a real difference in a build once you factor in slot consolidation, build point distribution and enhancement point allocation.

Running content with an ideal group will significantly cut down on grind and guarantee situational buffs.

In a pug group you may not have a bard, paladin or ranger. Even if you have a bard they might not keep their songs up. The cleric might not have or refresh recitation. You swap out your +4 insight weapon and stop blocking to use a wand or scroll. You are potentially down by 20+ AC in a worst case scenario.

Which brings me back to my original point, one has to be careful when calculating a useful AC, it can be very situational.

Yes running with an ideal group is very very unlikely. But i still cant understand how a cleric wont refresh a buff. I really think your stretching here for an arguement. +6 paly aura, yeah that shouldnt be figured into your standing ac. Thats why most ac breakdowns include a standing, self buffed, party/raid buffed breakdown. Not because all of us that break down ac expect to have a party running around for our every need, but to show what the potential is.

You obviously dont know me, but im the guy that will run a hound with no healers cuz I dont wait for a perfect party. I specifically showed the OP how to calc out his ac for max, and made it very clear that he could add dps gear as he got more buffs from the party. Any tank who drops 20 ac to pick up 2 in a tanking scenario is just not very smart.

Im not angry in the slightest, I do take exception to someone telling the OP to be careful about the buffs he calcs out when the advice is way off base. I responded to you so the OP doesnt think that your advice is spot on without having another opinion to take into acct. I could care less if I convince you, I do want the OP to make informed build choices however, so I break down the advice that you give that i disagree with.

To sum it up useful ac is a number you can sustain imo. This doesnt include boosts. This does include common party buffs that are sustainable throughout a given encounter. To say that a clerics buff is not sustainable because that cleric will refuse to refresh it, isnt part of an ac breakdown, its a PSA about a prick player that doesnt want to work as a part of a team. Expecting a cleric or bard to refresh buffs before/when they run out is an entirely reasonable assumption for a player thats building a main tank using ac.

[fedechicco]

In the first i thank you all for every advice, I see now I should definetly drop 1 or 2 ac to have larger DPS.
I'm putting soon another build on this thread, with slightly less AC and more to hit roll, at least.

[fedechicco]

Ok, I'm really near to TR now, just a week left and some shroud to get my GS ready.
I really wanted to keep the AC as it was, because I liked it, but I tried to put more to hit roll and more damage into it.

So this is the new version, without Weapon Finesse and Rapiers, and instead with dual kopesh and some weapon focus & specialization to raise the DPS.
The feats for DPS and their order is taken from http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=231816 and the only reason why I take Improve Critical Piercing is to be able to banish effectivly in Vale. When Vale's slayer will be done I'll change that feat to Improve Critical Slash, with the free feat swap.

This is still not a DPS build, but it should be able (in my intentions) to deal more damages than the average tempest finesse build.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.0 BETA
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Dwarf Male
(20 Fighter)
Hit Points: 412
Spell Points: 0

BAB: 20/20/25/3030
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 12
Will: 7

Starting Ending
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 18
Dexterity 16 23
Constitution 18 20
Intelligence 12 14
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 6 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 5 17 21
Bluff -2 -1 -1
Concentration 4 6 6
Diplomacy -2 -1 -1
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -1 -1
Heal -1 0 0
Hide 3 6 6
Intimidate 2 22 37
Jump 7 27 27
Listen -1 0 0
Move Silently 3 6 6
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 1 2 2
Search 1 2 4
Spot -1 0 2
Swim 3 4 4
Tumble n/a 7 7
Use Magic Device n/a 5 5

Level 1 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Attack
Feat: (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stability
Feat: (Automatic) Dwarven Stonecutting
Feat: (Automatic) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Waraxe
Feat: (Automatic) Giant Evasion
Feat: (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Heroic Durability
Feat: (Automatic) Light Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Martial Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
Feat: (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Orc and Goblin Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Poison Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
Feat: (Automatic) Simple Weapon Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Sneak
Feat: (Automatic) Spell Save Bonus
Feat: (Automatic) Sunder
Feat: (Automatic) Tower Shield Proficiency
Feat: (Automatic) Trip
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I

Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Mastery I

Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I

Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II

Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery II

Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Intimidate
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I

Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II

Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III

Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Warrior of the Wild
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery II

Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery II

Level 11 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost III

Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Maastery II

Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II

Level 14 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Dwarven Shield Mastery III

Level 15 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III

Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery III

Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender III

Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)

Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity


astery II

[fedechicco]

Just to give a feedback on this build.

Levelling this thing was great, especially because I was in a static party with a dark monk. My DPS lack is balanced by her increased sneak attack when I intimidate the mobs. I was able to run almost every quest, up to elite, just me and the monk and our hirelings.

The DPS was average, my final STR is 24 unbuffed, 28 while in stance for Harry or similar. With khopeshes and the right feat choice it wasn't too bad anyway, i crit up to 140 with a bard along.
The to-hit bonus is the worse thing, in the normal content (even lvl 19-20 quests) I have no problem even with PA on, but on epics I can't hit the final mobs (like the final one on Tide Turns), even with PA off, even while he's armor destructed and I'm fully buffed...

Again, when I'm that useless i keep intimidating, so the other guys use the sneak attacks, but that's really the worse thing about the build.

I don't have the full gear (no chattering, no insight +4 from shroud, etc...) but i still sit on 63 intimi (with just GH), 80+ AC, 47 blocking DR.
I tank with no problems at all Sully on VoD hard and Horoth on ToD normal, and I don't get cursed.

My final judgment is that it's a great build for tanking if you don't have much gear, and it has been very easy to get to lvl20. It is not so great in epic content because of the problem I said.

Now I'm near to TRing again, so it won't matter anymore.