Redo THF animation while moving; give us back glancing blows

[Junts]

Im not missing the point, but arguing about TWF vs THF rogues and monks is pointless. You could give rogues and monk all the THF feats for free and they would still be TWF. The cost, in this case, is mostly irrelevant since there is no viable alternative.


Speaking of sacrifices, look at those stats.

The THF 18/8/18 sacrifices 3-4 reflex, 3-4 to hit with ranged weapons and possibly 3-4 ac (not important on a barb, but the same stats can apply to fighters, etc..)
The TWF 18/15/15 sacrifices only 20-40 hp?

IMO, 3-4 reflex and ranged capability is a better stat investment then 20-40 hp. Others may disagree.
The point is neither build really makes any relevant sacrifices worth justifying anything. Dex on a THF is just as valuable as dex on a TWF.

Ranged capability? Do your characters range anything ever that isn't a lever? Mine don't, except maybe plinking the dq a few times if the casters are particularly slow nuking her back to the platform the first time.

I'd accept the dex argument really if and only if the gb changes lead to 18/2 barb/rogue builds being better off thf: if you're not evading, those 3-4 reflex are not that big a deal.

The only reasons I see to put points in dexterity are max dex bonus of armor and twf. Unsurprisingly, nearly every other build does leave dex at 8.

[Junts]

But if THF were buffed, as is the topic of this thread, that wouldn't necessarily be the case. Bards and battleclerics don't gain nearly as much inherent benefit rogues and monks get from TWF.



Well, consider me someone who disagrees.

+3 reflex is somewhat useful, but nowhere near as useful as +40 HP. Suppose a 14 DEX Barb is hit with a DBF, and has to roll a 10 to save. The 8 DEX Barb has to roll a 13. So, on average, against a 100 point damage DBF, the 14 DEX takes 100*((9/20) + .5*(11/20)) - 30 = 42.5. The 8 DEX takes 100*((12/20) + .5*(8/20)) - 30 = 50. Those extra 40 HP could absorb a 500 base damage DBF slightly better than +3 Reflex.

Yeah, those 40 HP would need to be healed, and saves help more vs many DBFs in a row, but when Mass Cures and Heals are being thrown around constantly, and even a clerics' aura can take care of 40 HP in a few ticks, who cares? And that's ignoring damage from melee, bludgeoning from meteor swarms, Horrid Wilting, Horoth's DoT effects, and others that a Reflex save does nothing to mitigate.

+3 ranged to-hit is almost completely worthless on a melee character. DQ2 is the only time I ever pull out a ranged weapon for any purpose other than hitting levers, pulling mobs, or, rarely, shattering crystal. +3 AC is worthless at endgame to all but a very few characters that actually go for AC. Especially for Barbs.

DEX on a THF is a waste of points. DEX on most TWF would be just as much a waste of points except for its necessity as a prerequisite.

\


More twf would want dex because more twf (for a variety of reasons) have evasion, and reflex saves are more valuable when they lead to you totally ignoring aoes than needing slightly less healing in them. Evasion that doesnt work atl east 85% of the time is pretty worthless in DDO because of the rate at which aoes are spammed.

[mediocresurgeon]

Mr. Paiz confirmed via DDOCast that Half Orcs have a unique THF animation.

[Monkey_Archer]

Mr. Paiz confirmed via DDOCast that Half Orcs have a unique THF animation.

Interesting...

So can you twitch will be my first question.
If not, that will be an unfortunate disadvantage for a half-orc's dps... likely enough of a disadvantage to put them in last place as far as overall THF dps is concerned

[Junts]

Interesting...

So can you twitch will be my first question.
If not, that will be an unfortunate disadvantage for a half-orc's dps... likely enough of a disadvantage to put them in last place as far as overall THF dps is concerned

I confess I feel that if half orc's unique animation was untwitchable, there's absolutely no reason they would have publically stated that it won't be used for other races, since they'd almost surely want to do exactly that instead of having to rebalance a whole feat line repeatedly to fix it.

On the other hand, they may intend on giving h-orcs gigantic thf bonuses that are only viable because they can't twitch, which would be pretty funny!

[Aesop]

No, I wouldn't say that. One could argue that it adds tactic to THF gameplay.



Don't make the assumtion that THF and TWF are equal in the first place.

Don't make the assumption that they shouldn't be



... nah I don't buy that 100% myself


However I do think that they need to have a balance and the way it stands ... it doesn't

[KKDragonLord]

I confess I feel that if half orc's unique animation was untwitchable, there's absolutely no reason they would have publically stated that it won't be used for other races, since they'd almost surely want to do exactly that instead of having to rebalance a whole feat line repeatedly to fix it.

On the other hand, they may intend on giving h-orcs gigantic thf bonuses that are only viable because they can't twitch, which would be pretty funny!

Most players dont even know what Twitch is
they would never balance the game around it like that

[PopeJual]

Most players dont even know what Twitch is
they would never balance the game around it like that

I agree 100% that it wouldn't make sense to balance the game around it, but since Turbine took Glancing Blows away from moving combat, it seems as if they're doing what doesn't make sense.

[KKDragonLord]

I agree 100% that it wouldn't make sense to balance the game around it, but since Turbine took Glancing Blows away from moving combat, it seems as if they're doing what doesn't make sense.

on the contrary, it serves the purpose of making those who don't know unaffected by those who do know since it gives unintended advantages.

Twitch was a fluke and its on the process of being fixed, they just did a workaround instead of fixing it properly and the only ones complaining are the ones who exploited it so im pretty sure they dont care.

I just hope they still have intention to fix the animations properly one day.

[azrael4h]

the only ones complaining are the ones who exploited it so im pretty sure they dont care.

I didn't know about twitching until after the nerf; I complain because it weakened the active, flowing combat that made DDO so enjoyable. No one just stands there in real combat with a sword; I train with one, so I know. Any other martial artist, whether studying an eastern or western art, will say the same. My Paladin lost dps because she chose to not get hit with rays, dance around foes, avoid beholder beams, and so forth instead of being a swinging statue.

It turned into an advantage, however, because one LR later I had three open feat slots from dumping useless garbage feats like the THF line has become.

[PopeJual]

Twitch was a fluke and its on the process of being fixed, they just did a workaround instead of fixing it properly and the only ones complaining are the ones who exploited it so im pretty sure they dont care.

I'd agree with that except for the fact that the casual player non-twitchers got smacked with the nerf bat just as hard as the twitch THF players. Your assertion that the only ones complaining are the ones who exploited it is just dead wrong. I can't twitch effectively and I'm still ****ed that they essentially deleted three feats from my Barbarian and my Paladin.

Increased proc rate and increased damage on glancing blows leads to exactly 0% increased DPS when you don't get those glancing blows in the first place because you're maneuvering to stay alive in a combat.

[KillEveryone]

and the only ones complaining are the ones who exploited it so im pretty sure they dont care.

I've not exploited it. I've tried it after they nerfed the feats and I just don't like it. If you are moving a lot then it is difficult to do. Twitch really is only good against stationary targets because if you move too much you get a different animation. I've tried it and don't care for it. I can't see a lot of times when twitching is beneficial because of the mass of people standing in one spot or effects such as Harry getting bigger...his wings will get in my way...all make it difficult for me to try and do and frankly I just don't want to find a stationary target and pratice till my muscles get a memory because I would rather go questing.

I've complained because I want my glancing blows back. They can change the animation to make the shorter swings at the end of the cycle if they want. I just want my glancing blows back.

I'm constantly moving. Every bit of DPS helps. I have three feats that are now mostly useless. They may help against bosses because that is about the only time I stand still.

There are so many feats that are useless in this game and changing the THF line to not give glancing blows back while moving made three more feats mostly useless.

Unless they actually change things to give whatever effects they change things to, while moving, I will NEVER take these feats again because they are useless and the DPS you gain aginst bosses isn't really enough to justify taking 3 feats. I'll put in something else that is more usefull.

[Ellistran]

Correct me if I am wrong

The first tier in The THF feat only applies the possable damage to your secound swing in your full attack animation.

The secound tier only applies to the third swing in your full attack animation and increases the damage of all splash.

The third tier in the THF feat chain only apllies to the fourth swing and increase overall damage to all splash.

If you move at anytime it resets your attack animaiton. Then you would loose the bennifet of the 2nd and 3rd feat tier feat excecpt for the added damed to secound swing splash. 10pts of damage?

If you twitch attack or just move you loose the tier 2 and 3 feats except for the added damage to the splash.

If this is the case hasnt it only ever been usefull to take the first THF feat?

[KillEveryone]

Correct me if I am wrong

The first tier in The THF feat only applies the possable damage to your secound swing in your full attack animation.

The secound tier only applies to the third swing in your full attack animation and increases the damage of all splash.

The third tier in the THF feat chain only apllies to the fourth swing and increase overall damage to all splash.

If you move at anytime it resets your attack animaiton. Then you would loose the bennifet of the 2nd and 3rd feat tier feat excecpt for the added damed to secound swing splash. 10pts of damage?

If you twitch attack or just move you loose the tier 2 and 3 feats except for the added damage to the splash.

If this is the case hasnt it only ever been usefull to take the first THF feat?

No.

You needed the third tier to still get the ability to have those glancing blows and move. GTWF also gave glancing blows when moving otherwise you wouldn't get any glancing blows if you moved, much what we have now even if you have all the feats.

Even though I move most of the time, there are a few times where I'm stationary but that isn't for long. Usually I'm stuck in a corner or back up against the wall and I'm looking for a route to get out. I would still get a few glancing blows in then but not very many and usually I didn't go through the full attack chain. I had more when I could get them moving, since I would get them on the second swing, but far less now that I can't get them when moving at all.

[Junts]

I've not exploited it. I've tried it after they nerfed the feats and I just don't like it. If you are moving a lot then it is difficult to do. Twitch really is only good against stationary targets because if you move too much you get a different animation. I've tried it and don't care for it. I can't see a lot of times when twitching is beneficial because of the mass of people standing in one spot or effects such as Harry getting bigger...his wings will get in my way...all make it difficult for me to try and do and frankly I just don't want to find a stationary target and pratice till my muscles get a memory because I would rather go questing.

I've complained because I want my glancing blows back. They can change the animation to make the shorter swings at the end of the cycle if they want. I just want my glancing blows back.

I'm constantly moving. Every bit of DPS helps. I have three feats that are now mostly useless. They may help against bosses because that is about the only time I stand still.

There are so many feats that are useless in this game and changing the THF line to not give glancing blows back while moving made three more feats mostly useless.

Unless they actually change things to give whatever effects they change things to, while moving, I will NEVER take these feats again because they are useless and the DPS you gain aginst bosses isn't really enough to justify taking 3 feats. I'll put in something else that is more usefull.

I practice between quests and while waiting for peopel to enter quests, etc. It's still really hard to be consistent.

The only way to do it reliably is to get it down to habit so that you don't have to see your own animations to do it.

[BlackSteel]

I practice between quests and while waiting for peopel to enter quests, etc. It's still really hard to be consistent.

The only way to do it reliably is to get it down to habit so that you don't have to see your own animations to do it.

my main character was a barbarian. the funny thing is, he's been on the TR train for awhile now. And when doing his monk lives, I have to remind myself to not twitch on a TWF. The nice part about monks tho is that normally Ki strikes take up my twitching fingers. Sad part is two monks lives down, and I still find myself trying to twitch occasionally.