Redo THF animation while moving; give us back glancing blows

[Aaxeyu]

TWF gets twice as many weapon effects (such as Holy or Lightning Strike) and get double the benefit of DPS buffs like Warchanter songs and Prayer.

Yes, but it still doesn't make glancing blows and offhand attacks comparable.

[mediocresurgeon]

Yes, but it still doesn't make glancing blows and offhand attacks comparable.

That's not really the point of this thread, or the suggestion I made.

[Aaxeyu]

That's not really the point of this thread, or the suggestion I made.

No, but the it was the point of someones post.

[Monkey_Archer]

Because they can gain way more than that by attacking multiple mobs.

Thats a very good reason why TWFs should do slightly more single target dps.
Its also a good reason why TWF does significantly more auto-crit damage.
And, its a good reason why TWF should have more versatility in weapon selection.

But, that has nothing to with dps while moving because THFs currently dont gain any additional dps against multiple mobs because they dont get glancing blows.

Put it this way:
Name one advantage THF has while moving that justifies doing ~30% less dps then TWF?

[Nospheratus]

ps: anyone every tried running and swinging a greataxe at the same time?

Yes, but i don't have "60 STR" and it didn't go so well :P


The moving and attacking is very important, but tbh i don't see an advantage to gain glancing blows when doing this. I just hope this mechanic is never removed though!

Does trip and stun apply with that chance on glancing blows? If not, perhaps it could be added. The chance of proc'ing such a thing is very low and there is still a DC to resist it.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Put it this way:
Name one advantage THF has while moving that justifies doing ~30% less dps then TWF?

Except THF fighers wielding esos still deals more dps than any other twf build, except a rogue.

[Nospheratus]

Except THF fighers wielding esos still deals more dps than any other twf build, except a rogue.

Except esos doesn't grow on trees!

[justagame]

yea, and what's your point again? That THF without glancing is bad damage because they "only" get 1.5 str and double PA?
Same can be said for TWF.

The point is that it isn't a net advantage for THF vs TWF. The main remaining point of differentiation then becomes the glancing blows for TWF, and the offhand attacks for TWF. (not coincidentally, these are the things that the respective feats provide).

I have no doubt people would freak if offhand attacks didn't proc while moving. I know I would (I have both TWF and THF melees). It's considered a silly analogy only because the very idea of it is silly. Similarly, why would we consider not allowing glancing blows while moving to be sane? It's the one thing you get from the THF feats, only you don't get that benefit at all from moving? Why is it considered not a fair comparison to ask if it would be reasonable to disallow the TWF feat benefits while moving?*

From what I saw the last time (when update 5 nerfs were announced), as well as now, the reasons it gets dismissed appear to be:

1. The much larger audience of elite TWF players. A potential nerf to TWF is met with much greater outcry, because by and large elite dps = twf in the eyes of many. In fact, some on this board have even written "if you're thf and you don't twitch, you're not dps, period". If the majority of elite dps melees were instead THF, the outcry would be much greater, and many fewer of you would dismiss it.

2. There is concern among some that THF dps is too good, but it's based 99% on ESOS, a weapon that 99.9% of the population will never, ever wield. (I made that number up, but based on the current epic grind and drop rates, and the percentage of folks that even play epics enough, it's woefully misleading use ESOS as somehow being representative of THF dps.)

* Note, I am not actually suggesting a further nerf to TWF, but pointing out how ridiculous it would be.

[PopeJual]

yea, and what's your point again? That THF without glancing is bad damage because they "only" get 1.5 str and double PA?
Same can be said for TWF.

My point is that you said 1.5 Strength damage and 2x Power Attack damage is a benefit for THF over TWF. I answered that THF and TWF *BOTH* get 1.5 Strength Damage and 2x Power Attack damage, so that is acutally not an advantage of THF over TWF.


I thought that was pretty clear.

[KKDragonLord]

Unlike auto attack classes Pallys are a cliky class and therefore suffer a big disadvantage when trying to Twitch and use our abilities to their fullest potential.

As such, getting Twitch back isnt fair to Pallys, Or to anyone who plays this game and does not read the forums or checks Shade's videos to know how to play their character properly.

I believe thats the main reason why the devs are making efforts to remove twitch.

I would rather have THF get a clicky ability with its style chain than getting Twitch back and return to being less effective because of my class choice.

[Monkey_Archer]

Except THF fighers wielding esos still deals more dps than any other twf build, except a rogue.

eSOS wielding fighters cant even out dps dual min2 khopeshes while moving, let alone a real dps weapon like epic chaosblades, lightning strikes or holy greater banes....

Of course its not quite 30% lower in that case, more like 10% lower...
The ~30% lower figure is assuming you use roughly equal weapons on both the THF and TWF, like a min 2.

So another question:
What advantage does an eSOS wielding fighter get while moving that justifies doing ~10% less dps then a TWF fighter using plain old min 2s?

[PopeJual]

Yes, but it still doesn't make glancing blows and offhand attacks comparable.

Is your problem that you don't like the idea of Glancing Blows while moving or is your problem that you don't want THF DPS to be increased because you don't want the current balance between TWF and WHF upset?


...because if you go back and actually read the OP, the suggestion that he made will not increase THF DPS - it will just change the THF feat line so that it isn't useless against trash. And I think that trash mobs go down fast enough that you don't really have to worry about people comparing e-peens on THF vs. TWF against a Kobold/Trog/Ogre/Orthon.

The OP's suggestion will result in a DPS *decrease* to THF while moving because of the slower attack animation at the same time as it results in a DPS *increase* to THF while moving because of the return of Glancing Blows.

Based on a bunch of calculations that I've seen and based on a fair number of actualy in-game tests that I've seen posted ere on the forums, the actual change to DPS will be insignificant. Some THF builds will pick up a bit of DPS. Some will lose a bit of DPS.

The game as a whole will improve, however, because THF builds will no longer feel that they need to stand still while fighting. A dynamic, moving combat is one of the things that I find most attractive about DDO. The current loss of Glancing Blows while moving makes players try to turn combat into the kind of pick-your-nose-while-you-watch-your-unmoving-character-autoattack-Harry snooze fest that some other MMOs have. Is that what you want for DDO?

[Aaxeyu]

Thats a very good reason why TWFs should do slightly more single target dps.
Its also a good reason why TWF does significantly more auto-crit damage.
And, its a good reason why TWF should have more versatility in weapon selection.

But, that has nothing to with dps while moving because THFs currently dont gain any additional dps against multiple mobs because they dont get glancing blows.

Put it this way:
Name one advantage THF has while moving that justifies doing ~30% less dps then TWF?

It's cheaper and in some situations (against multiple mobs) you can do twice as much damage as TWF. Those are good enough reasons if you ask me.

[Aaxeyu]

My point is that you said 1.5 Strength damage and 2x Power Attack damage is a benefit for THF over TWF. I answered that THF and TWF *BOTH* get 1.5 Strength Damage and 2x Power Attack damage, so that is acutally not an advantage of THF over TWF.


I thought that was pretty clear.

I didn't say that. Go back and read my post and the post I replied to.

[Monkey_Archer]

It's cheaper and in some situations (against multiple mobs) you can do twice as much damage as TWF. Those are good enough reasons if you ask me.

Yet again, very good reason why auto attack TWF should (and is) superior to auto attack THF on single targets.
Yet again, neither of those reasons have any bearing on dps while moving.

[Aaxeyu]

Yet again, very good reason why auto attack TWF should (and is) superior to auto attack THF on single targets.
Yet again, neither of those reasons have any bearing on dps while moving.

I disagree.

[PopeJual]

To me, it's simple:

The main benefit to THF is glancing blows (unless you're counting an extra 5 from PA and a few more points from STR). You don't get this benefit at all if moving at all. If you're moving, your damage is essentially S&B with a higher STR bonus, and 5 more from PA.

The main benefit to TWF is offhand attacks. You get these whether moving or not.

1.5 damage from strength and double damage from PA is not a small benefit. If it were, then I guess your post would have made sense. But it doesn't-

You said to go back and read your post. So I did.

Justagame said that the main benefit of THF is the glancing blows. You said that the 1.5 damage from strength and double damage from PA is not a small benefit. I'm guessing that statement was intended to show that THF has other benefits that TWF doesn't have, because any other interpretation seems kind of foolish. The fact that TWF *also* gets 1.5 damage from strength and double damage from PA kind of takes the wind out of your argument's sails here.

In fact, if you look at the three THF feats, they only increase your glancing blows and they do nothing else. Every other "advantage" that THF gets comes without feats because those "advantages" are needed to keep it worse than, but at least somewhat balanced with TWF in DDO. If you were to take away every benefit that the TWF feats give while you're moving, don't you think that people would be pitching a fit?

I'm all for keeping TWF better than THF for DPS, but THF shouldn't be the red headed stepchild of DDO. That's what Sword and Board is for...

[PopeJual]

I disagree.

Would you like to actually give any reasons *why* you don't like the idea of THF getting glancing blows while moving? I think it's pretty clear that you oppose the OP's suggestion, but you might find it easier to convert people to your way of thinking if you actually explained what your problem with the suggestion is.

[Aaxeyu]

You said to go back and read your post. So I did.

Justagame said that the main benefit of THF is the glancing blows. You said that the 1.5 damage from strength and double damage from PA is not a small benefit. I'm guessing that statement was intended to show that THF has other benefits that TWF doesn't have, because any other interpretation seems kind of foolish.

Then you guessed wrong. I said that it's not a small benefit because he disregarded them and went on to compare glancing blows to offhand attacks. That is flawed.

Offhand attacks does not equal glancing blow. If you lose your glancing blow you don't lose half your power attack damage and a large part of your strength damage.

[krud]

Would you like to actually give any reasons *why* you don't like the idea of THF getting glancing blows while moving? I think it's pretty clear that you oppose the OP's suggestion, but you might find it easier to convert people to your way of thinking if you actually explained what your problem with the suggestion is.

because it would be a prelude to removing "twitch" THF?