How will U7 affect THF DPS?

[mediocresurgeon]

This thread contains information that is inaccurate. It should no longer be used as a reference. If you are looking for semi-accurate DPS estimates for a barbarian, a better thread can be found here.

Glancing Blows no longer scale with Base Attack Bonus, and start at a base of 20% weapon damage.

Enhancements and feats that modify the Glancing Blow damage multiplier now function.

The Two Handed Fighting chain has been modified to add 10% to glancing blow weapon damage per tier, and the chance to produce special weapon effects has been increased to 3% per tier. They no longer grant to-hit bonuses for Glancing Blows.

The Barbarian capstone, “Might”, now correctly grants +10% glancing blow weapon damage and 5% chance to produce special weapon effects in addition to its +2 Strength bonus. (A half-orc or warforged barbarian with all three THF feats, Great Weapon Aptitude, and Might will have deal 60% weapon damage with their glancing blows, with a 20% chance to produce special weapon effects.)

The Frenzied Berserker and Great Weapon Aptitude enhancements now give full information on their effects on two handed combat.

“This is good news for THF, but I have some further questions. When THF was changed to not apply on attacks while moving, part of the reason for taking GTHF was removed, as the feat was applying glancing blows on mobile attacks. What’s being done in that regard?"

- No changes at this time.

"Also, are glancing blows triggering on ALL attacks now, or just on certain attacks in the chain? I’m assuming the former, but it would be good for this information to be explicitly stated."

- Same as before!

"Also, will effects such as the Frenzied Berserker’s vicious damage, paladin capstone and KotC damage all continue to apply to glancing blows 100% of the time, or will those be counted in the 20% chance for special effects?”

- Didn’t change this. They should be considered special effects, the 100% proc rate is considered a bug.

Summary:
Glancing Blows now deal 60% of the physical damage portion of your weapon if you are a THF-specialized barbarian, but the added vicious damage from Frenzy/Deathless Frenzy will only proc on 20% of your glancing blows. Glancing blows will continue to work on 3/4 on attacks while standing still, and not at all while moving.

This is different from how glancing blows currently work:
-Glancing blow physical damage equation is unknown; only way to figure it out is by using experimental data. Currently, it is less than 40% of physical damage.
-Vicious damage from Frenzy/Deathless Frenzy proc on 100% of glancing blows
-Damage from special effects has such a small proc rate that the damage increase is virtually negligible

Implications:
Our physical glancing blow damage will increased, our Vicious damage will be reduced, and special weapon effects (like Holy and Slicing) will have a 20% proc rate on glancing blows.


How this affects our DPS:

Maximum sustainable strength: 64 (+27)

• 18 base
• 5 levels
• 4 tome
• 6 enhancement
• 1 exceptional
• 2 exceptional
• 2 capstone
• 2 Frenzied Berserker ToD set
• 12 barbarian rage
• 4 deathless frenzy
• 2 frenzy
• 2 rage spell
• 2 yugoloth potion
• 2 Madstone

Total Strength to Damage: +40

Other Damage Bonuses:

• +22 Power Attack
• +2 Frenzied Berserker Set
• +2 Shintao Set
• +9 Warchanter songs
• +1 Prayer
• +4d6 Deathless Frenzy
• +2d6 Frenzy
• Bloodstone (non-epic)

Total Static Damage: 4d6+2d6+76

Epic Sword of Shadows (force damage ritual) vs no DR, 0% Fortification:
Average Damage Per Second: 463.661
Damage Change: +8.061 DPS

Glancing Blows: (.75)*[(0.6)*(5d6+86) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1)] = 49.875 damage per main swing
(2-14) Non-critical: 5d6+4d6+2d6+87 + glancing blow = 175.375 damage
(15-18) Critical: 15d6+4d6+2d6+259+18 + glancing blow = 400.375 damage
(19-20) Super-Critical: 30d6+4d6+2d6+517+36 + glancing blow = 728.875 damage
Average Damage Per Attack: 281.007
Attacks Per Minute: 99

Epic Sword of Shadows (force damage ritual) vs 15 DR, 50% Fortification:
Average Damage Per Second: 333.202
Damage Change: +8.002 DPS

Glancing Blows: (.75)*[(0.6)*(5d6+86) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1) - 15] = 38.625 damage per main swing
(2-14) Non-critical: 5d6+4d6+2d6+87-15 + glancing blow = 149.125 damage
(15-18) Critical: 15d6+4d6+2d6+259+18-15 + glancing blow = 374.125 damage
(19-20) Super-Critical: 30d6+4d6+2d6+517+36-15 + glancing blow = 702.625 damage
Average Damage Per Attack: 201.941
Attacks Per Minute: 99

Mineral II Greataxe (force damage ritual) vs Evil, Acid-Resistant, 0 DR, 50% Fortification:
Average Damage Per Second: 326.739
Damage Change: +11.639 DPS

Glancing Blows: (.75)*[(0.6)*(5d6+81) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1+2d6+1d4)] = 49.050 damage per main swing
(2-18) Non-critical: 3d6+2d6+1d4+4d6+2d6+82 + glancing blow = 172.050 damage
(19-20) Super-Critical: 18d6+2d6+1d4+4d6+2d6+487+36 + glancing blow = 665.550 damage
Average Damage Per Attack: 198.024
Attacks per Minute: 99

Conclusions:
-THF will receive a very slight (almost unnoticeable) bonus to DPS
-Barbarians will take slightly less vicious damage.
-Epic Sword of Shadows still overtakes Mineral II Greataxe for Pit Fiends and Cornugons ("Horned Devils").

[rimble]

maximum Sustainable Strength: 64 (+26)

+27

[mediocresurgeon]

+27

Thanks for the catch! +rep

EDIT:
All calculations are now accurate, including calculations on the linked pages.

[grodon9999]

You have Bard-song in that calc?

[mediocresurgeon]

• +9 Warchanter songs

Yes.

[krud]

Glancing Blow damage? I thought all self-respecting THFs twitch.

[Sweyn]

"Also, will effects such as the Frenzied Berserker’s vicious damage, paladin capstone and KotC damage all continue to apply to glancing blows 100% of the time, or will those be counted in the 20% chance for special effects?”

- Didn’t change this. They should be considered special effects, the 100% proc rate is considered a bug.

The way I'm reading this is, is that the 100% proc rate is a bug, but it is not getting fixed next update.

[quityourjobs]

The way I'm reading this is, is that the 100% proc rate is a bug, but it is not getting fixed next update.

Exactly. Hopefully they'll find a way to balance DPS again once that change is made.

I'm guessing the proc rate on special effects may end up higher than we're seeing now.

[mediocresurgeon]

Glancing Blow damage? I thought all self-respecting THFs twitch.

Twitching lowers your DPS now, unless you are getting auto-criticals.

[quityourjobs]

Implications:
Our physical glancing blow damage will increased, our Vicious damage will be reduced, and special weapon effects (like Holy and Slicing) will have a 20% proc rate on glancing blows.

Eladrin's post about weapon effect proc rates overlooked the bonuses applied by the Frenzied Berzerker I,II, and III enhancements. Unless those bonuses are to be removed, we must think that they will add anywhere from 6-15% proc rate on top of that 20%, in line with feats and other enhancements.

Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I: Passive Benefit: you gain the effects of the diehard feat while raging. Your two-handed weapon glancing blows have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects such as flaming. Active Benefit: expend 10 hp to frenzy.

Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II: Passive Benefit: critical multiplier of all weapons is increased by 1 on natural 19 or 20 while raging. Your two-handed weapon glancing blows get an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. Active Benefit: expend 10 hp to Supreme Cleave.

Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III: Passive Benefit: critical multiplier of all weapons is increased by an additional 1 on natural 19 or 20 while raging. Your two-handed weapon glancing blows get an additional increase chance of applying magical weapon effects. Active Benefit: expend 20 hp to Death Frenzy.

[mediocresurgeon]

The way I'm reading this is, is that the 100% proc rate is a bug, but it is not getting fixed next update.

Eladrin's post about weapon effect proc rates overlooked the bonuses applied by the Frenzied Berzerker I,II, and III enhancements. Unless those bonuses are to be removed, we must think that they will add anywhere from 6-15% proc rate on top of that 20%, in line with feats and other enhancements.

Those are good points. I guess what I posted was a worst-case scenario--and even then, barbarians stand to benefit.

[Cetus]

Those are good points. I guess what I posted was a worst-case scenario--and even then, barbarians stand to benefit.

Kensai 1 and 2 also increase the effectiveness of glancing blows and special effects, I'd like figures for the fighter analog as well.

[Khanyth]

An update where barbs benefit....

unpossible!

[ColinQ]

Based on current math, what would be the tipping point point where eSOS out DPS Min2 GA on harry? +2 from Vul Might set? (+4 epic set)? 2 dmg airship buff? 4 more str somewhere from LotD/red helm/airship buff


What about Min2 Falcion/Lit2 GA/Lit2 Falcion?


Why would Min2 gain more DPS than eSOS on Harry/Sully/Horoth as it would gain less from glacing blow due to lower base damage?


Whats the dps change for average shroud puggers with min2 GA and 18+5lv+6item+2 tome + 2 capstone + 12 rage + 6 frnzy + 2 rage + 1 airship = 56STR without bard/TOD/force ritual set?

Maximum sustainable strength: 64 (+27)
18 base
5 levels
4 tome
6 enhancement
1 exceptional
2 exceptional
2 capstone
12 barbarian rage
4 deathless frenzy
2 frenzy
2 rage spell
2 yugoloth potion
2 Madstone
Total Strength to Damage: +40

Other Damage Bonuses:
+22 Power Attack
+2 Frenzied Berserker Set
+2 Shintao Set
+9 Warchanter songs
+1 Prayer
+4d6 Deathless Frenzy
+2d6 Frenzy
Bloodstone (non-epic)

I see FB set bonus to dmg but not to STR

[mediocresurgeon]

Why would Min2 gain more DPS than eSOS on Harry/Sully/Horoth as it would gain less from glacing blow due to lower base damage?

Mineral II has a substantial chance to proc Holy and Slicing on glancing blows now, whereas the eSOS doesn't have any special effects like that. I'll get back to your other questions when I'm not in the Shroud

I see FB set bonus to dmg but not to STR

The total was correct; I just forgot to write it in the list (it's in there now). +rep for the catch!

[ColinQ]

Mineral II has a substantial chance to proc Holy and Slicing on glancing blows now, whereas the eSOS doesn't have any special effects like that. I'll get back to your other questions when I'm not in the Shroud

Min 2 glancing went up by 8.6dmg/swing
eSOS glancing went up by 2.175
holy / slicing should only account for (2d6+1d4)*.75*.2=1.425 dmg increase

New eSOS
Glancing Blows: (.75)*(0.6)*(5d6+86) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1) - 15 = 35.975 damage per main swing

Should be (.75)*((0.6)*(5d6+86) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1) – 15)
Ie. Only .75*.2 chance of magical effect, and DR only apply when glancing blow procs



ALSO

New Min2 GA
Glancing Blows: (.75)*(0.6)*(5d6+81) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1+2d6+1d4) = 50.625 damage per main swing

Like wise (.75)*((0.6)*(5d6+81) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1+2d6+1d4))
Ie. Only .75*.2 chance of magical effect


On a side note
Weapon Aptitude would provide 2% chance per tier (20% max – 5% cap – 9% THF feats)/3
6AP point for extra (2d6+1d4)*.75*.06 = 0.4 dmg per hit seems marginable

[lord_of_rage]

Summary:
Glancing Blows now deal 60% of the physical damage portion of your weapon if you are a THF-specialized barbarian, but the added vicious damage from Frenzy/Deathless Frenzy will only proc on 20% of your glancing blows. Glancing blows will continue to work on 3/4 on attacks while standing still, and not at all while moving.

This is different from how glancing blows currently work:
-Glancing blow physical damage equation is unknown; only way to figure it out is by using experimental data. Currently, it is less than 40% of physical damage.
-Vicious damage from Frenzy/Deathless Frenzy proc on 100% of glancing blows
-Damage from special effects has such a small proc rate that the damage increase is virtually negligible

Implications:
Our physical glancing blow damage will increased, our Vicious damage will be reduced, and special weapon effects (like Holy and Slicing) will have a 20% proc rate on glancing blows.


How this affects our DPS:

Maximum sustainable strength: 64 (+27)

• 18 base
• 5 levels
• 4 tome
• 6 enhancement
• 1 exceptional
• 2 exceptional
• 2 capstone
• 2 Frenzied Berserker ToD set
• 12 barbarian rage
• 4 deathless frenzy
• 2 frenzy
• 2 rage spell
• 2 yugoloth potion
• 2 Madstone

Total Strength to Damage: +40

Other Damage Bonuses:

• +22 Power Attack
• +2 Frenzied Berserker Set
• +2 Shintao Set
• +9 Warchanter songs
• +1 Prayer
• +4d6 Deathless Frenzy
• +2d6 Frenzy
• Bloodstone (non-epic)

Total Static Damage: 4d6+2d6+76

Epic Sword of Shadows (force damage ritual) vs no DR, 0% Fortification:
Average Damage Per Second: 465.476
Damage Change: +9.9 DPS



Epic Sword of Shadows (force damage ritual) vs 15 DR, 50% Fortification:
Average Damage Per Second: 328.830
Damage Change: +3.6 DPS


Mineral II Greataxe (force damage ritual) vs Evil, Acid-Resistant, 0 DR, 50% Fortification:
Average Damage Per Second: 329.338
Damage Change: +14.2 DPS



Conclusions:
-THF will receive a very slight (almost unnoticeable) bonus to DPS
-Barbarians will take slightly less vicious damage.
-Mineral II Greataxes now out-DPS eSOS versus Arratraekos, Suulomades, and Horoth (previously this was only the case if you were missing +2 strength somewhere, Prayer, or full Warchanter songs)

Not sure why the Eantique greataxe isnt in these calcs.

[Vanshilar]

Eh just a quick note here, the glancing blow damage formula is pretty much known (except for one part). It is:

(damage + THF feats) * BAB multiplier

damage = non-crit damage, i.e. weapon dice + enhancement + str modifier (1.5x since THF) + power attack (2x since THF) etc., basically the damage your main hit does on a non-crit, not including magical effects nor sneak
THF feats = 10 * number of THF feats. Note that some people say that it's 10 for THF, 30 (total) for ITHF, and 30 (total) for GTHF, i.e. GTHF just adds an extra glancing blow on the 3rd animation but doesn't increase the glancing blow damage, while ITHF gives a lot more damage. I keep meaning to level a trash char up to 8 to test this, but never get around to doing so, but this is the only point of contention. If the character has GTHF though it's 30 for sure, what's not known is whether it's 20 or 30 total for ITHF. Again, I've heard people say both, but haven't tested this myself. I have tested that THF is 10 and GTHF is 30 though. Note that currently, the barbarian capstone doesn't affect this, even though it's supposed to.
BAB multiplier = 0.20 for BAB 1-10, 0.25 for BAB 11-15, 0.30 for BAB 16-20. I tested this before. This is affected by that divine power spell thingy by the way (i.e. if you're BAB 13 and you click the clickie and become BAB 16, the glancing blow damage will increase because the multiplier increases). Note that the multiplier is *0.3 not /3.

The biggest thing hinges on whether or not they remove the 100% proc on frenzy/death frenzy and KotC. If they do, then I don't think THF barbarians are necessarily in any better shape than before U7, and THF paladins will become even weaker (as if they're not already weak enough as it is). Hence why they may or may not change it for U7, I'm sure in their internal calculations they know that it'd be a pretty substantial nerf for THF if they remove them.

[Cetus]

Eh just a quick note here, the glancing blow damage formula is pretty much known (except for one part). It is:

(damage + THF feats) * BAB multiplier

damage = non-crit damage, i.e. weapon dice + enhancement + str modifier (1.5x since THF) + power attack (2x since THF) etc., basically the damage your main hit does on a non-crit, not including magical effects nor sneak
THF feats = 10 * number of THF feats. Note that some people say that it's 10 for THF, 30 (total) for ITHF, and 30 (total) for GTHF, i.e. GTHF just adds an extra glancing blow on the 3rd animation but doesn't increase the glancing blow damage, while ITHF gives a lot more damage. I keep meaning to level a trash char up to 8 to test this, but never get around to doing so, but this is the only point of contention. If the character has GTHF though it's 30 for sure, what's not known is whether it's 20 or 30 total for ITHF. Again, I've heard people say both, but haven't tested this myself. I have tested that THF is 10 and GTHF is 30 though. Note that currently, the barbarian capstone doesn't affect this, even though it's supposed to.
BAB multiplier = 0.20 for BAB 1-10, 0.25 for BAB 11-15, 0.30 for BAB 16-20. I tested this before. This is affected by that divine power spell thingy by the way (i.e. if you're BAB 13 and you click the clickie and become BAB 16, the glancing blow damage will increase because the multiplier increases). Note that the multiplier is *0.3 not /3.

The biggest thing hinges on whether or not they remove the 100% proc on frenzy/death frenzy and KotC. If they do, then I don't think THF barbarians are necessarily in any better shape than before U7, and THF paladins will become even weaker (as if they're not already weak enough as it is). Hence why they may or may not change it for U7, I'm sure in their internal calculations they know that it'd be a pretty substantial nerf for THF if they remove them.

Frenzy damage is vicious damage. Vicious is a magical effect. The fact that it procs 100% of the time is obviously a bug. Frenzy damage is no different than a randomly generated GA with vicious on it.

[justagame]

If they're going to remove it for KOTC pally's might as well make it simple, and prohibit THF for any class but fighters and barbs. Pally THF is already a bit gimped from recent changes -- the only thing left for it is the kotc and capstone damage on glancing blows. Without that, and no big STR bonus like fighters and barbs, there is no sense whatsoever in it.

Some might say "there shouldn't be any THF pally's anyway", but I strongly disagree.

The more changes and nerfs narrow the options for solid builds, the more I think it weakens the game. We're already pretty close to that right now in many cases. Right now TWF paladin (gutted as it is), is clearly superior to THF paladin, a THF can still put out respectable dps against the right foes. This will mean that the ONLY dps option for a pally is TWF. Anyone think that adds flavor to the game? It's already close to the point where high level quests are a swarm of dual-wielding min2 khopesh users and fire-specced casters.

IMO, anything that furthers the gap between the best build for a class and all other options really hurts the game.