GS Weapon - Great Axe or Great Sword

[Therigar]

I am now more confused than ever because it appears that there is no 'right' answer, or rather: every weapon is the right answer depending on the circumstances.

One truth is that if you want to list all of the exceptions then you will end up with a large number of weapons creating a list of which is best for each and every situation.

Some players are able to keep all of that information in their head and to switch between weapons so that they always have the optimal weapon for every encounter.

I can't do that. So for me I need to know what 1 weapon will do me the most good.

And, because we are talking greensteel that means gathering all the crafting materials -- something that is not a trivial exercise for me. So I am not going to be looking at 2 or 3 weapons. I am going to look for 1 weapon that will give me the most value for my investment of time and energy.

Also, because we are talking greensteel, I am not going to worry about which weapon is better when I am at low and mid levels. I am going to look for the weapon that gives me the most bang for the buck when I am at high level with my full STR, enhancement lines, etc.

If I do that 1 weapon stands out. That is falchion.

The fact is that greataxe stands out in some specific instances. The fact is that maul stands out in some specific instances. The fact is that Radiance II instead of Mineral II stands out in some specific instances. It might even be a fact that Lightning II stands out in some specific instances (although I haven't run these numbers).

But, if I am crafting my first greensteel and it has to serve multiple purposes then falchion wins. And, unlike the difference between falchion and greataxe against a boss like Harry the falchion wins by a huge amount in general purpose use.

[Cam_Neely]

Wow, my head hurts, and I'm glad I'm a Dwarf and using my Axe. Looks better, fits the race, and does better dmg with dwarf enhancements Thanks to all you for going though these numbers it is a very useful exercise, and I'm def going to be using the info when I start crafting GS for my 16/2/2 Bard/Fighter/Barb

[Therigar]

This should help.

Yeah, we know I made those errors. It is addressed in later posts. I should go back to the originals and make the corrections.

Edit: I went back and deleted/fixed the most horrible errors. My first post to this thread is now as accurate as I can figure out how to make it.

[kernal42]

Edit: I went back and deleted/fixed the most horrible errors. My first post to this thread is now as accurate as I can figure out how to make it.

I'm under the impression that two-handed weapons get str * 1.25, rather than str * 1.5, as the strength bonus; can someone verify this?

Beyond that, I see the Falchion winning by 5% against 0% fort, 0 acid resist foes, which still decreases against fortified or acid-resist foes.

I would still take the greataxe over the falchion. That 5% does not outweigh the higher crit multiplier & base damage benefit. Put better, I care about weapon quality against two types of foes: Bosses, and trash. Against bosses (fortified & acid resist), the greataxe wins. Against trash, they will be frequently stunned/held (autocrit), so the greataxe wins.

The very fact that we can look at the same data and make different weapon crafting choices emphasizes what has been said repeatedly: There is no "best" choice.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Visty]

I'm under the impression that two-handed weapons get str * 1.25, rather than str * 1.5, as the strength bonus; can someone verify this?

its 1.5

the math is done easily

[kernal42]

its 1.5

the math is done easily

Indeed; I would have checked myself but am away from a machine with DDO.

TY for the response & confirmation of 1.5.

Cheers,
Kernal

[supp3nhuhn]

When you talk about autostuns then no greensteel weapon wins.

You will want a maul of stunning +10 for that as barbs (especially warforged and dwarven ones) are very well capable of stunning their own targets and the damage difference is too low to justify swapping weapons after the stun.

As multi-purpose weapon the contest is really between falchion which has the best crit profile by quite a margin and the maul which can beat the dr of the most mobs while only being behind by 1.5 points of damage compared to sword and axe.

The reason so many people think the axe is the be all, end all is that they confuse peak damage with damage per second and thus put too much emphasis on their 500 point crits.

[kernal42]

When you talk about autostuns then no greensteel weapon wins.

You will want a maul of stunning +10 for that as barbs (especially warforged and dwarven ones) are very well capable of stunning their own targets and the damage difference is too low to justify swapping weapons after the stun.

Many barbarians (especially dwarven and warforged ones) are quite capable of reliably landing stuns without using a stunning+10 weapon at all, instead choosing the best dps weapon. Also, they may run with casters who have an affinity for mass hold monster.

The reason so many people think the axe is the be all, end all is that they confuse peak damage with damage per second and thus put too much emphasis on their 500 point crits.

Perhaps this is true, but I haven't seen any of them in this thread. Numbers and arguments are much more compelling.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Therigar]

The very fact that we can look at the same data and make different weapon crafting choices emphasizes what has been said repeatedly: There is no "best" choice.

If the parameters are the same then there is no way a person can look at the data and justify a different choice.

If we are talking autocrit then greataxe wins and one would have to be deliberately ignorant to choose a different weapon.

If we are talking general purpose then falchion wins and the same observation applies to anyone choosing differently.

I don't think anyone is being intentionally ignorant. Rather, I think that they are looking at slightly different parameters. For example, a player who runs with groups where mobs are routinely held/stunned sees the greataxe as a better general purpose weapon. That makes sense because the autocrit exception is actually a norm for them.

OTOH, players who run in groups where mobs are seldom held/stunned see the sustained damage of the falchion as a much more obvious choice. To them autocrits are exceptions and occur too infrequently to shift the balance.

It isn't the data that causes us to make different choices, it is the shift in parameters that is taking place. Nevertheless, there are right answers in the sense that there are some choices that are incredibly bad regardless.

Even that will change if we shift from discussing warforged barbarians to halfling monks.

[TheDearLeader]

If the parameters are the same then there is no way a person can look at the data and justify a different choice.

Right.

The parameters of the OP, however, never stated auto-crit, or stunning, or epics, or any of that.

It states: Min II, which is best?

Therefore, we must look at it from this "general purpose" standpoint, and also assume that being that it IS a Min II weapon, its purpose is geared more to DR-based mobs.

Which, clearly, Min II Falchion > Greataxe in these situations.

But, I think the OP has the information necessary; this is the last I'll go on beating this dead horse.

[kernal42]

I certainly agree that we're talking about different parameters. Where we disagree is in defining a reasonable set. Your "general purpose" parameters seem to be 0% fortification; 0 acid resistance. Yet at the same time, you specify that you're looking at using this weapon as a primary weapon in end-game combat. This is inconsistent, as most end-game foes have acid resistance, fortification, or both.

I would view the greataxe as a better "general purpose" weapon because it is never much worse, and is sometimes far better. But now we're just defining "general purpose"....I think the discussion outlined above has already clarified the situations when one is better, and by how much. The OP can probably make a reasonable choice based on that.

Cheers
Kernal

[supp3nhuhn]

Many barbarians (especially dwarven and warforged ones) are quite capable of reliably landing stuns without using a stunning+10 weapon at all, instead choosing the best dps weapon. Also, they may run with casters who have an affinity for mass hold monster.

Define reliably.
If you have a 80% chance to stun a mob without a stunning weapon this one will raise that to 95% which is a 19% increase.

Going from a +5 holy burst maul to a min2 axe is an extra 11 (acid blast burst part) + 5*3 (base damage*crit multiplier) = 26 damage.

26 damage is 19% of 137 damage.
A +5 holy burst greataxe deals (11.5+(strmod*1.5)+22 (powerattack))*3 + 7 + 14 = 121.5 + (strmod*4.5)

So any barb that has at least 18 strength will benefit more from the stunning maul than from your greensteel axe.

On another note, the min2 axe is only 4.5 damage ahead of the min2 maul in autocrit situations which is absolutely negligible.
The maul breaks the DR of golems and skellies though which is way more useful than breaking the DR of zombies.
Thus i think the axe is one of the worst greensteel weapons unless you happen to be a dwarf.

[kernal42]

So any barb that has at least 18 strength will benefit more from the stunning maul than from your greensteel axe.

Only if they have a +5 holy burst maul of stunning +10, and imp crit bludgeoning. Considering stunning blow was suggested to replace imp crit due to min II being the primarily-used weapon, and that the weapon you presented cannot exist, your comments change nothing.

Yes, a maul would break DR on skeles, while the axe breaks DR on zombies. In both cases you should be using a GUB weapon instead, just like a GCB would be preferred for golems.

Cheers,
Kernal

[supp3nhuhn]

Only if they have a +5 holy burst maul of stunning +10, and imp crit bludgeoning. Considering stunning blow was suggested to replace imp crit due to min II being the primarily-used weapon, and that the weapon you presented cannot exist, your comments change nothing.

Yes, a maul would break DR on skeles, while the axe breaks DR on zombies. In both cases you should be using a GUB weapon instead, just like a GCB would be preferred for golems.

Cheers,
Kernal

No, in that example a +5 holy burst maul of stunning + 4 would do and you don't need improved crit when a target is in autocrit, any maul of stunning +4 would be enough if you assumed a more realistc strength value for a barb.

If you use scenarios where a higher stunning would be beneficial the stunning maul would get even more ahead.

I said the maul was the better allrounder, whether specialist weapons outperform it (in case of gub slightly with 2.1 more damage per hit) against their respective target race doesn't matter and a +5 metalline maul of gcb isn't exactly common.

[kernal42]

you don't need improved crit when a target is in autocrit.

Well yes, but you do need imp crit against non-stunned targets (because, you know, stunning blow has a cooldown). Without imp crit the maul drops by ~10% dps.

[ThunderTank]

As a general purpose weapon the falchion is better. There are exceptions and that has always been clear.
.

Your assumptions and conclusions are mostly flawed bc they dont assume real gaming experiences.
What do you mean by "general purpose"?
The only situations where i would equip a min II weapon is on boss fights: Epic DQ, Shroud, VoD, ToD, etc.
Falchion works good on trash mobs with 0 fort. And in a group where mass hold monster/stuns are not being used. (therefore a limited number of situations assuming u got stunning blow).
A min II falchion looks like a real bad advice for me tbh. Would be less dps than an axe/maul for boss fights(which is why u craft a min II in the first place) and epic quests. And less dps than a Li II falchion on regular trash mobs. So overall mediocre on all situations.

Also not to mention that i still use my min II greataxe to bypass DR on hard/elite boss fights, even though i have the e-sos and e-xumm crafted. (If it was a falchion, would be rotting on the bank once i found that it sucks against med/heavy fort).

[Jahmin]

Sure you can fighter for 35%

Crit Rage for 40%!

But yes, all are so close in regular questing that the fact that the gAxe owns Epic means go gAxe

[jcTharin]

Another post that is no longer needed.

you can delete your posts. go to edit, go to advanced, at the top there is a delete option.

[Hadrian]

Yes, a maul would break DR on skeles, while the axe breaks DR on zombies. In both cases you should be using a GUB weapon instead, just like a GCB would be preferred for golems.

Yeah, what this thread is missing is practical knowledge of the situations in the game.

As the quote above states, a maul does break DR on skeletons. Does anyone worry about skeletons and craft weapons for them? Not that I know of. You hardly see people bother to switch to blunt weapons anymore since there are no really threatening skeletons in the game.

Look at when DPS matters most, and when you're just overkilling a target no matter what weapon you use.

My advice would not be to build an all purpose weapon with the idea of killing easy trash encounters most effectively. Build for the encounters that are the most challenging, because you won't really be able to tell a difference against basic trash that dies in a couple of swings regardless.

[TheHolyDarkness]

Good thread. Trying to take it all in.

Turns out, the other day, I was trying to make a light pick for a TWFer of mine, and accidentally made a greatsword by mistake (turns out they share the same formula, difference being that the pick uses a Horn, which I neglected to remember).

So, here now is this greensteel greatsword sitting in my shared bank. I'm feeling a bit down on that, but I figure may have some options. Turns out my main character is a THF Warforged Paladin anyway, but he already has a Min II Greatsword. I suppose I could give it to him, but I wouldn't know what to put on it. Never slipped my mind to make a second weapon for him; not with so many other toons hungry for ingredients.

Alternatively, I've been planning to start a Half Orc Barbarian the day U7 is to come out as well. So another option would be to give the unintended GS to this Orc someday, probably as a Min II. Then again, I thought you barbarians always used axes (understandably for Auto Crit Scenarios), so I don't know if I should just suck it up and make a GS Axe/Falch instead when the time comes, rather than the easy route of a hand-me down mistake that lacks in its full potential.

So, what's the best way to turn this lemon into lemonade?

Put it on my barb one day, or turn it into some sort of spare for my WF paladin (whose biased towards G. Swords anyway, given his Lord of Blades Enhancement), under presumption that my barb is missing out if its not an Axe/Falch?

If the latter, again, what would you throw on it, since I already have a Min II? Always associated lightnings with speedy TWFers. Again, never contemplated making spare greatswords.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~