GS Weapon - Great Axe or Great Sword

[SINIBYTE]

barb Brain Hurt Bad Numbers Baaaad Need Big Stick Which Stick Better Sharp Pointy Stick Or Sharp Pointy Axe Or Other Sharp Pointy Stick? /rage Raaawwrrrrrr

[Khanyth]

barb Brain Hurt Bad Numbers Baaaad Need Big Stick Which Stick Better Sharp Pointy Stick Or Sharp Pointy Axe Or Other Sharp Pointy Stick? /rage Raaawwrrrrrr

axe.

go kill

[Therigar]

axe.

go kill

Edit: Removed unnecessary stuff.

So, why does Khanyth still type axe? Even though the numbers clearly show falchion to be superior there is a portion (large portion?) of the player base that insists on believing that greataxe is the best choice.

Oddly, I held this opinion until this thread. My opinion had been formed purely on the basis of forum postings where greataxe seemed heavily favored by other posters.

Kudos to OP for their post and to all who have helped correct my knowledge of the enhancements (and the resulting math).

[Therigar]

As to the fortification point, I have to apologize. I had read various threads that indicated raid bosses had fortification on various settings. There is an interesting post on end boss fortification (and other information) written by Vanshilar. Vanshilar’s post puts the actual fortification somewhere between light and moderate at around 50% most of the time. (The observed numbers don’t actually correspond to increased fortification at increased difficulty levels but also represent a limited sampling.)

It is interesting to see posts indicating that burst and blast effects occur even if a critical does not proc. This means that they are not dependent on a critical but rather only on a potential critical – regardless of the way in which they are described.

On a crit immune target this would mean that a greataxe procs burst & blast effects half as often as a greatsword – clearly indicating that on crit immune the greatsword is better since in every other respect their damage is the same. Even though the falchion has a higher threat range for more potential crits than the other weapons its damage is still lower than that of the greatsword because it has a lower base damage (the increased crit chances are not enough to overcome the lower damage rate).

What this translates to is the following:

On autocrit targets greataxe is best because its crit damage is highest.
On crit immune targets greatsword is best because it has a higher base damage and larger crit threat range.*
On all other targets falchion is best because its higher threat range results in more damage from critical hits.

What this does not take into account is DR which might make other weapon choices better in some specific cases. Against skeletons and oozes, for example, a bludgeoning weapon might actually cause more damage.

However, OP appears to be asking about Min II and general damage where I’m assuming that only 1 weapon is being crafted. In that situation the best general purpose Min II weapon (giving the full range of OP’s initial parameters) appears to be the falchion.

Note that this is what was said by TheDearLeader quoting k1ngp1n in the first reply to OP.

If the user is using a bloodstone, or other source of seeker, and the target is not auto-crit, the order is Falchion, Greatsword, Greataxe.

Edit: *This assumes that blast & burst effects proc on potential crits even if the crit itself does not proc. If this is wrong then greatsword and greataxe are exactly equal to one another against crit immune targets (my initial assumption/understanding). Caveat about DR still applies, but among the 3 (greataxe, greatsword & falchion) the observations hold true.

[supp3nhuhn]

Edit: *This assumes that blast & burst effects proc on potential crits even if the crit itself does not proc. If this is wrong then greatsword and greataxe are exactly equal to one another against crit immune targets (my initial assumption/understanding). Caveat about DR still applies, but among the 3 (greataxe, greatsword & falchion) the observations hold true.

Since burst damage depends on the crit multiplier they are still the same because while the sword procs bursts twice as often as the axe the latter deals twice the damage per proc.
The sole exception to this are alignment bursts where crit range is better than multiplier which are 3d6 for x2 and 4d6 for x3.

[Therigar]

Since burst damage depends on the crit multiplier they are still the same because while the sword procs bursts twice as often as the axe the latter deals twice the damage per proc.
The sole exception to this are alignment bursts where crit range is better than multiplier which are 3d6 for x2 and 4d6 for x3.

Ah, yes I'd forgotten that or misunderstood when reading earlier becoming confused. Thanks for the clarification.

[SINIBYTE]

Well, I just ran Deleras using a staff - it was bad ass.

(it was the only PG weapon I could find heh)

[kernal42]

On autocrit targets greataxe is best because its crit damage is highest.
On crit immune targets greatsword is best because it has a higher base damage and larger crit threat range.*
On all other targets falchion is best because its higher threat range results in more damage from critical hits.

You're making it complicated in needless ways, and ignoring important complications.
Which is better will depend largely on your character's bonus to damage (the part multiplied by crits only), the target's fortification, and acid resistance.

Against 0% fort, no acid immunity, you need a 20 str with +6 seeker for Falchion to win against greatsword or greataxe.
Against 50% fort and acid immunity, you need about +50 to damage and +6 seeker for a falchion to win against greatsword or greataxe.

Against 0% fort, no acid resist, greatsword slightly beats greataxe because of seeker.
Against foes with acid resist or auto-crit situations, greataxe beats greatsword because of bigger crits (more acid burst gets through resist).

So which is better will largely depend on what you want the weapon for. Bossbeater? Greataxe is probably the right choice. Levelling TRs? Greatsword will do you best (more frequent crits are more useful than bigger crits). High strength toon with lots of bonus, multiplied damage? Falchion.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Therigar]

You're making it complicated in needless ways, and ignoring important complications.
Which is better will depend largely on your character's bonus to damage (the part multiplied by crits only), the target's fortification, and acid resistance.

Against 0% fort, no acid immunity, you need a 20 str with +6 seeker for Falchion to win against greatsword or greataxe.
Against 50% fort and acid immunity, you need about +50 to damage and +6 seeker for a falchion to win against greatsword or greataxe.

Against 0% fort, no acid resist, greatsword slightly beats greataxe because of seeker.
Against foes with acid resist or auto-crit situations, greataxe beats greatsword because of bigger crits (more acid burst gets through resist).

So which is better will largely depend on what you want the weapon for. Bossbeater? Greataxe is probably the right choice. Levelling TRs? Greatsword will do you best (more frequent crits are more useful than bigger crits). High strength toon with lots of bonus, multiplied damage? Falchion.

Cheers,
Kernal

I don't think you are correct, at least not entirely.

First off the effort I'm making to understand OP's initial question and to find if there is a best answer is limited in scope. The thread is about a warforged barbarian using Min II. Added complexities and circumstances are reduced by this limitation and by what I've assumed is implied in OP's post -- that the weapon is meant for general purpose use so only 1 will be crafted.

I make the assumption because the "right" answer to OP's question is to craft a Min II of every concievable type so that you can pull out the specific weapon for the specific mob giving maximum potential damage. And, the "right" answer will also include crafting other greensteel weapons with other effects. Trying to identify and expound on every possible target and establish the precise, most effective weapon doesn't appear to be OP's intent.

OP wants to know which is best, greataxe or greatsword. And, the answer is "neither." The best weapon is falchion.

Now, you are correct that the damage that is multiplied by the crit multiplier determines the answer. However, we are discussing specifically a warforged barbarian. That means we should look at all of the things that warforged barbarians have available to boost their damage. This is not added complexity on my part. It is necessary to set the limits for the discussion.

Without setting the limits we can't really answer OP's question.

Now, because barbarian isn't my strongest area I made some bad assessments. I failed to understand that certain enhancements were no longer available and did not fully understand how others actually worked. Those errors caused errors in my conclusions. And, I am grateful to the members of the forum community who pointed them out.

When we hold discussions it is always helpful when we can learn from our mistakes. And, in this case not only have I made mistakes in my understanding but the community as a whole has made mistakes. That is because the forum community often asserts that greataxe is the weapon of choice. But, this is wrong.

Look at OP's post

From what I've seen / read most people go for the axe - I'm guessing for the x3 crit multiplier.

This correctly identifies the advice normally given.

But, we are specifically talking warforged barbarian. Are we seriously going to think that a warforged barbarian is not going to have high STR? Are we seriously going to think that a warforged barbarian is not going to use all of the enhancement lines to boost damage?

What use is a warforged barbarian if is not strong and dealing maximum possible damage? Yes, some people might build something inferior because of a personal desire to have something different. But, if I look at a barbarian (of any race) I'm looking for DPS.

So, my effort is to see that in action within the limits of OP's initial question.

Bottom line is that falchion is the "right" weapon choice if OP is crafting a single Min II weapon for general purpose use. What I have not done is evaluate if Min II is actually the best greensteel choice. A warforged barbarian will have no trouble overcoming DR on most bosses. So, having a good/metalline weapon might not produce the maximum damage. It could turn out that a Radiance weapon will actually proc higher damage even as a "boss beater."

Nonetheless, greataxe or greatsword are only better weapons very early in a warforged barbarian's career. Crafting a Min II on that basis is wrong. Craft the Min II with an understanding of a fully developed character. And, when you do make it a falchion because that is the best weapon in this specific situation.

Edit:

I was curious about the question of whether Min II was actually the best all around weapon or if some other greensteel weapon would be better. I had assumed that Radiance would be better as an all around weapon and I also thought that holy/good/good might be better.

Keep in mind that this applies to warforged barbarians. But, it looks to me like Min II is the best all around choice. Holy/good/good does more damage on a non-critical hit against evil targets. And both it and Radiance do more damage on a critical hit. But, the two loose out because they do not get the keen effect. By reducing the threat range the benefit of critical hits is reduced. Radiance actually does less damage on non-criticals than Min II so it has no chance to make up the lost damage caused by the lower threat range.

The higher damage of holy/good/good on non-crit rolls is almost enough to overcome Min II's advantage. Against targets w/o damage reduction there is ~9% difference. But, the advantage still lies with Min II. I found that interesting.

[Carpone]

Greataxe is the best choice for MinII assuming you have:

1. Frenzy enhancement.
2. Death Frenzy enhancement.

The multiplier for Frenzy and Death Frenzy only applies to a 19-20, regardless of the weapon. So even if you chose a Falchion for a higher crit range/lower crit multiplier, that extra crit range isn't going to be affected by the Frenzy enhancements.

I use a MinII greataxe and have zero problems hate tanking ToD elite.

[kernal42]

OP wants to know which is best, greataxe or greatsword. And, the answer is "neither." The best weapon is falchion.

That's not even true - there's a large set of situations where greataxe still beats falchion, as a 50 str, max PA, +6 seeker barb. For example:
Against crit-immune foes.
Against Arraetrikos.
Against auto-crit targets.

Crit-immune targets can be ignored if the char has a set of weapons specific for these guys (GUB maul, etc). The small difference in dps against Harry is basically irrelevant also. However, wielding a MinII greataxe as a general purpose weapon frees up the imp crit feat from the classic barb selection, opening up stunning blow. Coupled also with other party members' ability (mass hold? Other stuns?), this barb will be frequently encountering auto-crit mobs where the greataxe beats the falchion by a significant margin.

The point is that it's very rare for a weapon to be "the best," in an all-around and unequivocal sense. Furthemore, which weapon is in fact best depends as much on the situation as the player's playstyle, feats, and questing companions.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Visty]

Greataxe is the best choice for MinII assuming you have:

1. Frenzy enhancement.
2. Death Frenzy enhancement.

The multiplier for Frenzy and Death Frenzy only applies to a 19-20, regardless of the weapon. So even if you chose a Falchion for a higher crit range/lower crit multiplier, that extra crit range isn't going to be affected by the Frenzy enhancements.

I use a MinII greataxe and have zero problems hate tanking ToD elite.

in fact for a min2 and fb3 the GS is better

[DANTEIL]

Wow as someone who is leveling up a THF bardbarian that is just starting to get flagged for Shroud/greensteel I started reading this thread with high hopes on some clarity about which weapons I should be aiming for.

I am now more confused than ever because it appears that there is no 'right' answer, or rather: every weapon is the right answer depending on the circumstances.

I have been using greataxes up to this point simply because they have been more plentiful in the loot pulls. I got lucky and drew a Bloodstone (yay) so I might just continue by crafting a GS greataxe. It may or may not be über but it will have to do

[Khanyth]

So, why does Khanyth still type axe? Even though the numbers clearly show falchion to be superior there is a portion (large portion?) of the player base that insists on believing that greataxe is the best choice.

Why do I type axe??? Simple. I take numbers with a grain of salt and place a greater weight on personal experience when making weapon choices.

I've used falchions. I've used great axes. I've used great swords.

I've found great axes to be better.

Numbers do not trump personal experience. One can alter, shape, manipulate, highlight, lowlight, numbers to make whatever argument they want with whatever variables to the equation, and show off their use of a calculator. People use number arguements that are based in optimum, perfect settings which rarely exist in real life game play. People can spit out numbers to "prove" whatever they want to "prove" when it fact, it doesn't "prove" anything. I've read so many posts where people have "proven" that a certain weapon works better than a certain weapon.... and when someone trys to tell them they're wrong, they add in more numbers, the percentages, the rolls, the buffs, and it becomes a wall of text war/pi**ing contest.

Yes, I look at the numbers. Yes, I do read the debates now and then. Nevertheless, no wall-of-text post has ever trumped the simple rules that I was told many months ago when I first started playing DDO (Regardless of GS, Epicness, crafting..... whatever) :


If you're an elf barb, use a falchion. If you're a dwarf barb, use an axe. If you're a human or a warforged barb, use whatever you want. If you're anything else, reroll.

Yes, there are exceptions... whatever. As a general "Which weapon type should I use?" debate, this still wins.

Flame away. I'm wearing my uber-leet-epic-gs'd 250% fire damage absorption Spiderman Underoos with 100% fort and everything-block

[Khanyth]

Wow as someone who is leveling up a THF bardbarian that is just starting to get flagged for Shroud/greensteel I started reading this thread with high hopes on some clarity about which weapons I should be aiming for.

I am now more confused than ever because it appears that there is no 'right' answer, or rather: every weapon is the right answer depending on the circumstances.

I have been using greataxes up to this point simply because they have been more plentiful in the loot pulls. I got lucky and drew a Bloodstone (yay) so I might just continue by crafting a GS greataxe. It may or may not be über but it will have to do

Bolded for truth.

[Therigar]

That's not even true - there's a large set of situations where greataxe still beats falchion, as a 50 str, max PA, +6 seeker barb. For example:
Against crit-immune foes.
Against Arraetrikos.
Against auto-crit targets.

Unfortunately, it is true. Keep in mind that we are talking general purpose use and not any specific encounter.

Absolutely, against crit immune there are better weapons.
Absolutely, against auto crit there are better weapons.
Absolutely, against Harry there are better weapons.

But, these are exceptions and not the rule. So, if a player can only craft 1 Mineral II weapon they are better crafting a Mineral II falchion than a Mineral II greataxe. The math simply does not support any other contention.

Now, if OP wants to narrow the discussion to weapons for Harry or boss beaters in general (instead of just a general purpose vs all targets) that is fine. I have said all along that my assumption is that we are discussing a general purpose weapon.

As a general purpose weapon the falchion is better. There are exceptions and that has always been clear.

If we are talking specifically about Harry or some other boss then the answer will be different because the parameters surrounding the discussion will be different. But, exceptions do not establish the rule, they prove the rule. And while you have done a fine job of finding exceptions you cannot dispute that for general use the falchion is the best choice.

Which is all that I have concluded.

[Therigar]

Flame away. I'm wearing my uber-leet-epic-gs'd 250% fire damage absorption Spiderman Underoos with 100% fort and everything-block

Sweet! Did you buy them at Walmart or do they drop in game?

[Khanyth]

Sweet! Did you buy them at Walmart or do they drop in game?

They drop in game. It's a secret crafting recipe that... well... is secret.

It involves a lot of haggling.

[Xeraphim]

On auto crits 20*387=7740. Because 387>275.5>189.5 the greataxe damage will be more on any auto crit.

I can only conclude that greataxe>greatsword>falchion.

Critical Rage only benefits rolls of 19-20 with the increased multiplier, not all critical rolls. Auto-Crit is base multiplier on all rolls of 2-18 on autocrit, and gains the +2 multiplier from 19-20 only.

This will also affect your Falchion and Greatsword totals.

[Xeraphim]

<snip>

Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III
Prereqs: Level 18 Barbarian, Barbarian Frenzied Berserker 2, Barbarian Damage Boost IV, Barbarian Power Attack III, Barbarian Power Rage III.
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by an additional 1 when you roll a natural 19 or 20, bringing the total bonus to 2. Your two handed weapon glancing blows have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. You also gain the ability to expend 20 hit points to enter a death frenzy (which can stack with your basic rage and frenzy), increasing your strength by 4 and adding the 'Greater Vicious' property to your melee weapons. (+4d6 damage / +1d3 damage to self)

The Frenzied Berserker focuses on dealing tremendous amounts of damage to its enemies, punctuated with absolutely devastating criticals. Whether dual wielding heavy picks with a x6 critical multiplier, or using a two handed weapon that's producing magical weapon effects on glancing blows backed by their incredible strength, they dish out the damage (to their enemies, and if they choose, to themselves).

The Berserker can stack both of their Frenzy abilities to increase their strength by 6 and add an additional 6d6 damage to each of their swings at the cost of 2d3 damage reflected back upon them, or become a whirlwind of destruction using Supreme Cleave at will, as long as a friendly healer is willing to keep them going.

Edit: Minor clarification to FB3 - the critical multiplier increases stack.
Edit 2: Added the "when you roll a natural 19 or 20" section, which dramatically affects those DPS charts later on in this thread.

This should help.