GS Weapon - Great Axe or Great Sword

[BugsyB]

WF Barbarian

Wondering which is best for Min II - Great Axe or Great Sword.

From what I've seen / read most people go for the axe - I'm guessing for the x3 crit multiplier. The sword however also looks interesting - its higher damage and 19-20 crit range but only a x2 multiplier.

Opinions please - thanks

[TheDearLeader]

Shuriken. Oh yeah baby.

Actually, I was looking *somewhere* on these forums the other day, and it was something like Greatsword, Falchion, Greataxe for WF, I believe. They had neat charts and graphs and stuff. Maybe someone with strong search-fu can link back to that?

*EDIT* Silly me I forgot that my Search-Fu is strong, like Ukraine!

If the user is using a bloodstone, or other source of seeker, and the target is not auto-crit, the order is Falchion, Greatsword, Greataxe.

If the user is not using a source of seeker, and the target is not auto-crit, the order is Falchion, Greatsword/Greataxe (the two are identical.)

If the user is anything, and the target is auto-crit, the order is Greataxe, Greatsword, Falchion.

Also an interesting outcome of this is that an Elf Barb Falchion user is second only to a WF Barb Falchion, and surpasses a WF Barb GA/GS.

Juiciest bits from THIS POST, although there is more to explore there.

[omulrau]

Falchion, you cant beat 30% crit rate.

[TheDearLeader]

Oh. One thing. This doesn't take Epic SoS into account - strictly Green Steel. Just in case someone wants to pop one of the "what ifs" in or whatever.

[Goldeneye]

If you have a high stunning blow, are in epics where mass hold is being spammed, if you're running with a monk mashing the stunning fist, or you like getting the largest crit possible (on an 18-20), then the Greataxe is the way to go. (x3 crit)

Depends on situation.
Pure beat-down, Greatsword and Falchion are competition for greataxe (I'll let a number cruncher come in here)

[Khanyth]

For a WF... it's personal preference

[Goldeneye]

I'd do Greataxe. Statistically, 0%/50% fort, greatsword does well.. but it's so close, you might as well make a Greataxe since it'll work better in epic and give you better crits!

[FluffyCalico]

Falchion, you cant beat 30% crit rate.

Sure you can fighter for 35%

But back on topic the only place it matters is on epic and then you are almost always hitting auto crit or 100% chance

Meaning when it actually matters (epic) falchion falls way way behind greataxe

[BugsyB]

Thanks all some interesting replies

[Therigar]

Edit: The entire post has been edited to fix stupid errors on my part. If you want to see the original post look at the first post below.

My assumptions are 50 STR (including Rage, Barbarian Power Rage and double Madstone Rage) giving +30 damage (1.5*20), Min II with good burst, acid and acid blast, seeker +6, Barbarian Critical Rage II, Barbarian Power Attack III, Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III and Warforged Power Attack III.

I also assume 1 misses and 2-20 hit for every group of 20 attacks.

Good, acid and slicing damage average 3.5+3.5+2.5=9.5.

Non-critical damage is weapon damage + power attack damage + STR damage + weapon effects damage.

greataxe: 15.5+10+30+9.5=65.
greatsword: 15.5+10+30+9.5=65.
falchion: 12+10+30+9.5=61.5.

Critical damage is [(weapon damage + power attack damage + STR damage + seeker bonus) * critical multiplier] + weapon effects damage. Weapon effects damage is increased by the burst and blast effects (26 for the greataxe, 16 for the greatsword and falchion).

greataxe: [(15.5+10+30+6)*5]+9.5+26=342, [(15.5+10+30+6)*3]+9.5+26=219 if the crit roll is <19.
greatsword: [(15.5+10+30+6)*4]+9.5+16=271.5, [(15.5+10+30+6)*2]+9.5+16=148.5 if the crit roll is <19.
falchion: [(12+10+30+6)*4]+9.5+16=257.5, [(12+10+30+6)*2]+9.5+16=141.5 if the crit roll is <19.

Due to the seeker +6 I assume every critical confirms giving the following assessment:

greataxe: 1 (miss), 2-18 (hit for 65), 19-20 (hit for 342); 0+(17*65)+(2*342)=1789.
greatsword: 1 (miss), 2-16 (hit for 65), 17-18 (hit for 148.5), 19-20 (hit for 271.5); 0+(15*65)+(2*148.5)+(2*271.5)=1815.
falchion: 1 (miss), 2-14 (hit for 50.5), 15-18 (hit for 141.5), 19-20 hit for 189.5); 0+(13*61.5)+(4*141.5)+(2*257.5)=1880.5.

On auto crits (18*219)+(2*342)=4626. The greataxe damage will be more on any auto crit.

But, for general purpose damage I can only conclude that falchion>greatsword>greataxe.

[dormetheus]

My assumptions are 48 STR (including Rage, Barbarian Power Rage and double Madstone Rage) giving +19 damage, Min II with good burst, acid and acid blast, seeker +6, Barbarian Critical Rage II, Barbarian Power Attack III, Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III and Warforged Power Attack III.

I also assume 1 misses and 2-20 hit for every group of 20 attacks.

Good, acid and slicing damage average 3.5+3.5+2.5=9.5.

Non-critical damage is weapon damage + power attack damage + STR damage + weapon effects damage.

greataxe: 15.5+10+19+9.5=54.
greatsword: 15.5+10+19+9.5=54.
falchion: 12+10+19+9.5=50.5.

Critical damage is [(weapon damage + power attack damage + STR damage + seeker bonus + burst damage + blast damage) * critical multiplier] + weapon effects damage.

greataxe: [(15.5+10+19+6+14+11)*5]+9.5=387.
greatsword: [(15.5+10+19+6+10.5+5.5)*4]+9.5=275.5.
falchion: [(12+10+19+6+10.5+5.5)*4]+9.5=189.5.

Due to the seeker +6 I assume every critical confirms giving the following assessment:

greataxe: 1 (miss), 2-16 (hit for 54), 17-20 (hit for 387); 0+(15*54)+(4*387)=2358.
greatsword: 1 (miss), 2-14 (hit for 54), 15-20 (hit for 275.5); 0+(13*54)+(6*275.5)=2355.
falchion: 1 (miss), 2-12 (hit for 50.5), 13-20 hit for 189.5); 0+(11*50.5)+(8*189.5)=2071.5.

If the to hit rate declines greataxe only increases its advantage. If crits fail to proc greataxe only increases its advantage.

On auto crits 20*387=7740. Because 387>275.5>189.5 the greataxe damage will be more on any auto crit.

I can only conclude that greataxe>greatsword>falchion.

That's a lot of assumption, considering you can't have Crit Rage 2 and FB2.

[Therigar]

The entire post was an attempt to fix errors in my first post above. I have edited that post to make corrections. This post is no longer needed.

[TheDearLeader]

Wow. Lots of number crunchies going on, considering I provided a link to a numerical breakdown of someone who already determined that on a NON-AUTOCRIT mob, Falchion has the best DPS. Naturally, their numbers reflect that autocrit mobs do indeed take more damage from Greataxe.

OP never asked "what's the best auto-crit".

• Green Steel is Min level 12 on a weapon, therefore a TR toon will use it at this point ; mobs will likely not be auto-crit.
• The weapon asked for is "Min II" - meaning DR Buster. Meaning Devils, and Devil Boss beater. Seeing as I've never seen Arraetrikos/Harry/Sully stunned and therefore auto-crit-able, I think Falchion's high "natural" crit rate is bestand the numbers that support this agree.
• If we really want to get technical, less mobs are "Auto-crit" as of the Stunning 5% nerf. A good epic party will still have a high DC stunner, or Mass Hold Monster, or both.. but again, Min II isn't the best "Epic" weapon, now is it? Nor was this question specifically targeting Epic quests.
• But since we're still on this tangent, Epic Velah can't be autocritted - I'd rather maximum DPS on her than maximum DPS on some Epic Hobgoblin in VON 1.
• For Epics, Lit II Greataxe is probably the "King" for a WF trying to cause max DPS to an auto-crit mob.

For a general purpose Min II weapon, as the OP asked? Falchion.

[Therigar]

Another post that is no longer needed.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Well, barbarians aren't my forte but, why not? Are they mutually exclusive?

You are only allowed one of the two, and you can't take CR2 anymore at all if you build a new character or if you reset your enhancements.

[Therigar]

You are only allowed one of the two, and you can't take CR2 anymore at all if you build a new character or if you reset your enhancements.

Alright, well that clears things up. Thank you.

The rest of the post is no longer needed.

[Visty]

base damage wise GS and GA are exactly the same
once you add the special effects, GS is better

[TheDearLeader]

Keep in mind that many bosses have 100% fortification on elite setting and this could be important to players.

It might explain why people prefer greataxe in spite of the obvious advantage of falchion.

... What?

Two parts that hurt my brain. First, what "bosses" have 100% Fort on Elite? Not even Raid Bosses get 100% Fort on Elite.

Second, if we're talking about 100% Fort Mobs (Lets use Undead, since I obviously have concern about your analysis of bosses), Greatsword > Greataxe. Greataxe is only "great" because of its much higher crit number that raises its damage rating. With straight numbers, 2d6 does better than 1d12. Burst/Blast damages will still apply, and this *could* raise the Greataxe's damage up enough to tie Greatsword.

But, when taking this Burst/Blasts into account, and the fact that the Falchion will still burst 30% of the time on a 100% Fort mob, compared to 20% on a Greatsword.. well. I don't crunch numbers. That's why I linked to someone with the math-fu who already determined all this stuff for us.

[zomger]

Well, people have surely spent some time crunching numbers o.o

Anyway, were checking through some of those and it did make assumption that crit multiplier increase affects all the way to 17-19 ranger, while it clearly states only 19-20 range.

(FBII)
"While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by 1 when you roll a natural 19 or 20. Your two handed weapon glancing blows have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. You also gain the ability to expend 10 hp to Supreme Cleave. "

and

(FBIII)
"While raging, increases the critical multiplier of all weapons you use by 1 when you roll a natural 19 or 20. Your two handed weapon glancing blows have an additional increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. You also gain the ability to expend 20 hp to death frenzy"

[supp3nhuhn]

Greatsword and Axe are exactly the same with one exception which is alignment burst in which case the Greatsword is superior because it bursts twice as often with each burst being 75% of the magnitude of the axe's bursts, so if you go acid/good/acid the sword is better, for good/acid/acid it doesn't matter since elemental bursts from the sword are only 50% of those from the axe which evens out.

That being said consider using a maul because you'd actually benefit from the keen/impact min2 grants and have something decent against golems and undead with only a slight drop in top damage.

Alright, well that clears things up. Thank you.

This means that the following math is more accurate (most accurate?):

greataxe: 1 (miss), 2-18 (hit for 54), 19-20 (hit for 287); 0+(17*54)+(2*287)=1492.
greatsword: 1 (miss), 2-16 (hit for 54), 17-20 (hit for 227.5); 0+(15*54)+(4*227.5)=1720.
falchion: 1 (miss), 2-14 (hit for 50.5), 15-20 hit for 213.5); 0+(13*50.5)+(6*213.5)=1937.5.

And, at >33% more damage per 20 attacks falchion is the best greensteel choice for Min II if fighting standard, non-fortified, non-autocrit mobs.

The extra crit multiplier from fb only works on 19 and 20.