14/x - What gives you the highest dps?

[Sani_Medicor]

A 20 pure bard may be a better character in some ways... but more DPS? Nope...

This is a bit of an apple and oranges comparison, but I'm soloing stuff on my level 10 multiclass dwarf that gave my level 15 pure drow a hard time.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

She meant what she said!

Also, I concur.

Without the help of the devs, Junts, you are only dreaming, or is it that your just fascinated?

Either way, I'd LOVE to see the pure bard be more beneficial DPS wise, but it will have to wait for at least U7.

For the average player, pure bard warchanter will offer suboptimal DPS. Practically ANY toon can be turned around and boosted with rare, hard-to-acquire, time-consuming gear that a veteran and top tier player like Roc is. More power to her that she loves to grind, but most people want to see some of that power much earlier. The way to do that efficiently, is to multi-class. Then, if they DO have the time and the skill to acquire more gear, they can be potentially even BETTER. Player skill will be the ultimate decider however, and Roc is a great player.

Now, going 20 or going 18/2 may very well be the way to go come U7... but as it stands now, for most players pure 20 is not in any way shape or form optimal personal DPS.

[78mackson]

14/4 rogue/2 fighter seems better as 14/5/1 seems feat light as you only get 8 feats and I'd want at minimum 9:

WF: Slash
Toughness
PA
TWF
iTWF
gTWF
Extend
iCrit:Slash
Khopesh

your on the right trail here.. if we are talking dps here then a TR lvl of paladin must be included.. so add another feat.

I'd go human 14/6fighter twf, with all gear accounted it would just be -1 dmg behind a WF 14/6(.. but with one more feat(quicken or otwf), +5-7 (+3pa, +1litany, +1str, +2otwf)better tohit vs WF(hello epic), + more heal friendly... but with no immunities....

I Think that 'Nicks' 2handed barb would do real nice dmg.. but I personally could never go back to THF again and raging as a bard isnt really my personal flavour.

[Anthios888]

A 20 pure bard may be a better character in some ways... but more DPS? Nope...

A 14 bard/6 melee might be a better character in some ways, but more DPS? Nope.

First of all, my comment was meant as a joke, but there is a lot more truth to it than it might seem.

How can a pure bard give the same DPS benefit as a kensei or frenzy singer? Bard benefits are spread out across the entire party, and DDO is group-oriented at endgame.

On the most basic level, bard 20 gives 1 hit/damage to the entire party.

To-hit- In an epic quest, where many members of the party are likely not hitting on a 2, +1 to-hit represents at minimum 5% DPS. Now, say someone is trailing Lailat and only hitting half the time, +1 to-hit is 10% DPS. This type of bard gives the most advantage against the hardest foes.

Damage - Now, this is very variable on who you have, what weapons they're using, how fast they attack. But, say you have a raid party of very typical khopesh or dwarven axe melees. 1 damage/swing adds 6-7 DPS for each individual. Across perhaps 10 party members meleeing, that's 60-70 DPS: often more than the difference between many of the multiclass battlebards and pure battlebards. This difference may be more pronounced in quests where you're seeing a lot of crits (like mass holdable epics).

It would not stop me from playing some lip syncher abomination multiclass bard (my next project, in fact), but when the party needs "DPS," it'll be the pure bard that comes out to play. Not everyone has to play pure to be effective and have fun (after all, DDO does not require the "max" -- it's just that that's what this thread is about!) So, if you're really a hardcore DPS type, the damage and hit benefits to the party from more bard levels outweigh your personal DPS gain from multiclassing. And, this is not yet taking into consideration Warchanter III -- due out in a few weeks

Does this make sense?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Does this make sense?

It does actually. However, you assume that everyone in your party NEEDS that +1 to-hit. How many DPS toons in your guild, technically NEED that +1 to hit?

Regardless, I'm ALWAYS concerned about to-hit. And at the end of the day, come U7, you might be right. In fact, I HOPE your right.

However, with the game mechanics as they sit today, as long as your party CONNECTS, I believe bard personal DPS DOES matter.

Again though, I would love to turn my Genghis warchanter into a pure or 18/2 split. It all sits with the devs now.

[Anthios888]

Practically ANY toon can be turned around and boosted with rare, hard-to-acquire, time-consuming gear that a veteran and top tier player like Roc is. More power to her that she loves to grind, but most people want to see some of that power much earlier.

A pure bard can have the same gear as a multiclassed bard, and the principles I outlined above would still apply. Pure bards improve the group's DPS regardless of personal gear.

In some ways, it improves DPS with less grind -- the bard gains a significant amount of group contribution simply by dinging level cap. Earlier thresholds are also achieved that many levels earlier.

I would appreciate it in the future if you did not try to bring my personal stable of bard characters into this thread. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of other pure bards can attest that a pure bard has "power" all the way along the journey.

[Junts]

It does actually. However, you assume that everyone in your party NEEDS that +1 to-hit. How many DPS toons in your guild, technically NEED that +1 to hit?

Regardless, I'm ALWAYS concerned about to-hit. And at the end of the day, come U7, you might be right. In fact, I HOPE your right.

However, with the game mechanics as they sit today, as long as your party CONNECTS, I believe bard personal DPS DOES matter.

Again though, I would love to turn my Genghis warchanter into a pure or 18/2 split. It all sits with the devs now.

Every single one of them? Do you know how few characters can hit stuff like the von6 djinn without turning PA off?

Velah is basically the only even remotely difficult endgame fight in which to-hit doesn't matter significantly.

[Thrudh]

A 14 bard/6 melee might be a better character in some ways, but more DPS? Nope.

First of all, my comment was meant as a joke, but there is a lot more truth to it than it might seem.

How can a pure bard give the same DPS benefit as a kensei or frenzy singer? Bard benefits are spread out across the entire party, and DDO is group-oriented at endgame.

On the most basic level, bard 20 gives 1 hit/damage to the entire party.

To-hit- In an epic quest, where many members of the party are likely not hitting on a 2, +1 to-hit represents at minimum 5% DPS. Now, say someone is trailing Lailat and only hitting half the time, +1 to-hit is 10% DPS. This type of bard gives the most advantage against the hardest foes.

Damage - Now, this is very variable on who you have, what weapons they're using, how fast they attack. But, say you have a raid party of very typical khopesh or dwarven axe melees. 1 damage/swing adds 6-7 DPS for each individual. Across perhaps 10 party members meleeing, that's 60-70 DPS: often more than the difference between many of the multiclass battlebards and pure battlebards. This difference may be more pronounced in quests where you're seeing a lot of crits (like mass holdable epics).

It would not stop me from playing some lip syncher abomination multiclass bard (my next project, in fact), but when the party needs "DPS," it'll be the pure bard that comes out to play. Not everyone has to play pure to be effective and have fun (after all, DDO does not require the "max" -- it's just that that's what this thread is about!) So, if you're really a hardcore DPS type, the damage and hit benefits to the party from more bard levels outweigh your personal DPS gain from multiclassing. And, this is not yet taking into consideration Warchanter III -- due out in a few weeks

Does this make sense?

Very good explanation... +1 rep...

Note however you're talking about raids... With quests, and only 3-4 melee being affected that extra +1 damage across 3-4 people may not be more than the personal DPS a multi-class bard/rogue or whatever can bring to the group.

[Nomical]

It does actually. How many DPS toons in your guild, technically NEED that +1 to hit?

If you ever miss, you need +1 to hit.

I have two serious dps characters with lots of the grind gear you described above, and neither of them can hit all the time in Epic Queen. I don't think anyone but Kensei fighters can power attack and always hit on a 2 in there.

You are dead on above when you focus on playability for people that do not have +3/+4 tomes, greensteels, epic armors, shintao sets, epic spectral gloves, destruction armor, etc.

For those groups, bonuses to hit make a HUGE difference. Max strength and 20 BaB is not enough to hit all the time in every epic quest.

Bottom-line, even if you are Axer-uber, to-hit matters at end game. It's silly to argue that it doesn't.

[Anthios888]

Again though, I would love to turn my Genghis warchanter into a pure or 18/2 split.

Leslie, you would have to have 20 levels in you to be 18/2, and you're not yet capped

I am sorry that you have taken personally my suggestion that pure bards -- as they stand right now in update 6 -- can offer more group DPS than a multiclassed build. Please refer to my above post.

This thread is just not about your build, and it's not about mine.

[Bardicus]

Honest question - if to-hit is so important in epic, is everyone rocking Korthos sets? If +1 to hit is a 5% increase than by wearing Anger's Gift set they're picking up 10% dps increase.

[Darkrok]

I honestly think it's the super-geared that should dip into the multi-class and the undergeared that should stay pure. Say the difference in personal dps between pure and multiclassed was 25%. If you're only geared enough to do 100dps pure then you'd be putting up 125dps multi. You'd only need to add 25dps to the group via song advantages to warrant staying pure. But if you're geared to the teeth and can do 200dps pure then you'd be putting up 250dps multi. You've now doubled the dps that your songs have to make up.

So basically, the better your gear, the better your personal dps can be, the more it makes sense to maximize that as long as the costs to the group buffs are minimal.

[Thrudh]

I honestly think it's the super-geared that should dip into the multi-class and the undergeared that should stay pure. Say the difference in personal dps between pure and multiclassed was 25%. If you're only geared enough to do 100dps pure then you'd be putting up 125dps multi. You'd only need to add 25dps to the group via song advantages to warrant staying pure. But if you're geared to the teeth and can do 200dps pure then you'd be putting up 250dps multi. You've now doubled the dps that your songs have to make up.

So basically, the better your gear, the better your personal dps can be, the more it makes sense to maximize that as long as the costs to the group buffs are minimal.

DPS difference is not 25%... It's more like 25 more DPS.... It doesn't scale...

So the undergeared goes from 100 to 125... And the super-geared goes from 200 to 225..

So it's a bigger net effect for the under-geared to pick up 2d6+6 sneak attack, etc.

[BoBoDaClown]

Thanks for the replies. To give you background, this character will probably be a single TR bard (maybe a double TR bard). So no cool fighter/pally past life feats.

I am thinking 14/5/1 Bard Rogue Fighter is probably the best. I am imagine some really nice damage output with the rogue and Halfling SA damage.

However, it is situational damage. So, 14/6 Bard Fighter might stack up almost as well, without being so 'situational'?

Note, I did say 'personal dps'. I already have a character who is very much a 'support' bard.

Plus, I will be waiting to see how the bard PrEs stack up.

[Junts]

Honest question - if to-hit is so important in epic, is everyone rocking Korthos sets? If +1 to hit is a 5% increase than by wearing Anger's Gift set they're picking up 10% dps increase.

They don't because Anger's set conflicts directly with the Shintao monk set (2 hit, 2 damage), which most people strive for. Its worth noting, though, that people frequently wear the Shintao set when all the other modifiers on both items are either redundant (1 excep str, con 6, wis 6) to their other equipment, or do nothing at all for their build (concentration 15).

[Junts]

Thanks for the replies. To give you background, this character will probably be a single TR bard (maybe a double TR bard). So no cool fighter/pally past life feats.

I am thinking 14/5/1 Bard Rogue Fighter is probably the best. I am imagine some really nice damage output with the rogue and Halfling SA damage.

However, it is situational damage. So, 14/6 Bard Fighter might stack up almost as well, without being so 'situational'?

Note, I did say 'personal dps'. I already have a character who is very much a 'support' bard.

Plus, I will be waiting to see how the bard PrEs stack up.

PL: bard is terrible for melee bards, you'd be way better off being something else first, especially fighter or monk.

[Valindria]

I'm hoping the new PrEs (new meaning Tier 2 and 3) will make this discussion even more interesting.

If I wasn't going pure and looking for personal DPS I would do either

14/6 Dwarf WC/ DWA Kensi I
or Human 14/6 WC/Khopesh Kensi I

It's pretty hard to want to give up OID though.

[Thrudh]

PL: bard is terrible for melee bards, you'd be way better off being something else first, especially fighter or monk.

I agree...

I actually took rogue on my bard/rogue at 19th and 20th level, even though I hadn't planned to, just so I could set it up where I could LR+3 my current bard/rogue twice before I TR, so I can get rogue as a past life feat...

A 15/4/1 Bard/Rogue/Fighter with Rogue past-life feat and a radiance rapier should be fairly slick.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I am sorry that you have taken personally my suggestion that pure bards -- as they stand right now in update 6 -- can offer more group DPS than a multiclassed build. Please refer to my above post.

Actually, I dont take anything personally, so nice try at one-up-womenmanship. We all know that pure bards offer slightly more group DPS to the party, but that there's a cost involved in doing so.

A pure bard can have the same gear as a multiclassed bard,..

You are comparing apples to oranges. Gear stacks in most cases with your build so gear makes a HUGE difference, especially to a bard. I know that your guild can connect in most epics, if we can. Maybe ya'll should start rolling more THFs

You seem to be a bit out of touch. You arent offering a realistic picture for 99% of the folks out there. Shed that Epic SOS and all the gear most bards don't have, replace your skill with the average player skill, and your bard may very well be gimp in another player's hands. Players need to build what THEY can play best, not what YOU can play best or think is best.

[78mackson]

Does this make sense?

The "true" DPS build would be a warchanter halfer with pots, quicken and maximize... replacing the cleric. Nothing else. Wouldnt even require good gear. Fun? no.