Give us some clues on Bard Changes!

[CSFurious]

it is called the "song of recklessness" there are supposed to be drawbacks to it, if you do not want -10% fort for more dps, you are a silly wabbit, you are taking a risk, i.e., being reckless

it is not overpowered & i look forward to playing a half-orc war chanter in a few weeks
& if i hear any whining about -10% fort, i will laugh & talk about getting some cajones

good work Eladrin, pay no attention to the pooftas who think this is overpowered

[ArtosKincaid]

No, it's not overpowered. It's a perfectly reasonable buff most of the time, but you can't use it on Epic Dragon or Epic DQ, because having 90% fort on those fights will easily get people killed a lot of the time. Barbs and fighters will probably have enough HP to take a crit before a heal gets to them. Pretty much everyone else won't be able to do it.

[wax_on_wax_off]

No, it's not overpowered. It's a perfectly reasonable buff most of the time, but you can't use it on Epic Dragon or Epic DQ, because having 90% fort on those fights will easily get people killed a lot of the time. Barbs and fighters will probably have enough HP to take a crit before a heal gets to them. Pretty much everyone else won't be able to do it.

isn't it possible to have more than 100% fortification?

at least i think warforged can equip a 100% fort item to get 125% fort in which case -10% wouldn't matter so much?

[ArtosKincaid]

Yeah, it's a great buff for WF, or people silly enough to spec all the way up the Deneith dragonmark line and use Epic Chimera's Fang (not that I think the sword is bad, but the dragonmark line definitely is).

Other than that, it's not a buff I'd want up on my bard.

If at some point they add the ability to stack fort items for greater than 100% fort on a non-WF character, I'd reconsider, but as of right now having this up on anything with less than 550 HP is asking for a rez in epics.

[elujin]

i am sure war chanters need there love urgently and all but what about the virtuoso info plz T_T (even though i am getting a bad feeling about tier 2 its going to be bad T_T)

[Valindria]

Thank you so much for giving us information.

My initial thoughts:

- 10 HP is nice. I guess I see a WC as needing a d8. So if WC III gives another 10 then it would be about right for pure bards.

- Weapon Prof is nice. I hope it unlocks racial bonuses. Would be nice to be able take multiple weapons.

- GH Song - The only issue I have here is potentially the duration. It will be situational (beholders). 20 (40 extended) minute GH or ~5 minute song. Most likely what I will do is give myself GH, give the party good hope and the GH song at the start.

- Reckless - I have mixed feelings. I know my WC can not afford to not have 100% fort because in most cases a crit would be far worse then a 5% DS. 5% seems low for the bard casting it. I feel it should be 10% self 5% others. Others could potentially raise their DS higher then 5.

Things I would like to see:
- Improvement to Ironskin DR 5/- is nice but quickly becomes less helpful. Maybe WC III can give 10/-
- Buffs that improve self > others (i.e. song gives 10% DS to self, 5% to others)
- Combine songs. I would like to sing 1 time and have 3 effects with 3 songs taken away. At the start of quests its less of an issue, but getting 6-12 people to group up for 3-5 songs could be an issue. I would like this to not be WC specific since all bards can benefit from it.


EDIT: Forgot about Medium Armor:

- Medium Armor is kind of cool, the only issue I see is UMD arcane scrolls. There are some fights where I UMD Reconstruct on those pesky WF. Also any bard with 2 rogue is not going to want to lose the evasion so I think it will be a flavor thing. E. Marilith or the ugly Easter candy armor are the only the only ones off the top of my head I can think of. If WC III gets Heavy armor that would be awesome.

[Angelus_dead]

Well, part of the point is that a party without a bard of any kind is down +7 or more to-hit, and +5 or more damage, and now also -5% doublestrike.

Looks like the devs were somewhat aware of that pitfall, which is why Inspire Recklessness is a kiss-curse that can get a non-WF killed.

Some discussion has transpired upon the subject, and one suggestion had been to give some other classes weaker versions of the bard's buffs (Purple Dragon Knight, Henshin Mystic and War Priest were the 3 most likely ways for various classes to gain bard-like buffs).

It would also be reasonable to give that to KOTC (as a compensation for the other abilities working against just 2 creature types, and because "Courage" is related to "Fear Resistance"), Mechanic (after renaming the specialty to "Mastermind"), and Shintao (although they got Jade Strike instead, which has similarity but is a different channel for DPS boosts).

It's a really sure thing that PDK will get Inspire Courage, since that is a key feature of the D&D 3.5 prestige class. The thing is, that ability cannot be the main draw to the specialty, because Fighter players will continue to anticipate having a real bard teammate for nearly every meaningful raid battle.

No, you need one additional mass heal on every 10 swipes, just as you stated above. As you need a mass heal every 3 swipes, it's 'only' 33%

As explained above, just knowing that people can now get critted means the cleric needs to heal more, even if nobody has actually been critted in this battle yet. The cleric can't let anyone's hitpoints drop as far as he used to before casting a heal. As for the actual numbers, I was going for a simplified example that could be generalized to a lot of bosses.

False assumption.
Epic Velah has the nastiest crits of any raid boss in the game that I can think of.

Yes, I was going for a simplified example that could be applied to other places; kind of a "best case" for using Inspire Recklessness on a strong boss, so I pretended the boss had the weakest plausible crits. If the enemy even had merely 20/x3 that would make Inspire Recklessness worse than my example.

No, it's not overpowered. It's a perfectly reasonable buff most of the time, but you can't use it on Epic Dragon or Epic DQ

I'm anticipating that 90% Fort for 2.7-5% attack rate will be a bad tradeoff for most every battle that is somewhat dangerous, and the only good times for non-WF to use it is if the monsters' attacks are fairly harmless anyway.

Sure, if you have a reliable initimtank holding the boss on only him, then you may as well go ahead and use it for the 3.85% DPS increase... but that's a situation that was well in-hand anyway.

at least i think warforged can equip a 100% fort item to get 125% fort in which case -10% wouldn't matter so much?

Yes, that was covered several times throughout the thread. Many people considered it a problem that (Claw Bracer aside) Warforged experience zero penalty from Recklessness, while all other races face a substantial new risk.

[cforce]

Honestly, I'm surprised this has as much positive reaction as it did. I took one look at this and concluded I was getting a LR+3 for my pure Bard that I parked at 11 pending the tier II. A relatively small damage buff in exchange for requiring enough hit points to surive the occasional double-crit from a 60-80% starting point on my hit point bar?

I'll call this one the "wipe my PUG" song.

Seriously, I think folks have been running around with Minos a bit too long and have forgotten that the difference between 100% and 95% fort is bigger than the difference between 75% and 25% fort!

Ironically, the "fix" I'd ultimatley like to see to transform this song from a griefing tool into a good tradeoff is: reduce everyone's fortification! If this song was taking everyone from 95% to 85%, it would be useful. Taking folks from 100% to 90% however, is a huge tactical error.

As has been noted by *plenty* of other posters in more articulate ways than I, the widespread availability of 100% fort is a game design problem. Dealing with Criticals is *fun*, but harder. I'd like to see Lesser/Mod/Heavy Fort give 25%/50%/75%, and then give the Stalwart Defender and Defender of Siberys lines +10%/tier. Make fortification part of the reason that tactical management of aggro is important again -- better to get the aggro on your Dwarven Defender or Warforged Barbarian, say, than your Human Kensai.

That's my 2 cents -- as fortification currently stands in the game, I'll be making sure bards agree *not* to use this song before inviting them in a typical PUG!

[Eladrin]

Bard Spellsinger II:
Prereqs: Level 12 Bard, Bard Spellsinger I, Bard Energy of Music III, Bard Song Magic III, Bard Lyric of Song II
Benefit: Your further studies into magic have granted you another +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills for a total of +4 to each. You also gain another +100 maximum Spell Points for a total of 200. Any time you finish playing a bard song, you now have a chance to restore a small number of spell points to yourself and all nearby allies. You now have the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant yourself and all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to caster level for all spells, or to apply a spell point regeneration effect to one target. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class.
The chance of spell point pulse on song use is based on Perform skill.

Song of Arcane Might
Benefit: Expend a use of Bardic Music to grant a +1 morale bonus to caster level for spells cast by you and all nearby allies for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per level.

Spellsong Vigor
Benefit: Expend a use of Bardic Music to apply an effect to one target that restores spell points over time.

[Dwarfo]

bards are now a arcane/divines best friend

EDIT: can you use the spell point regen on yourself?

[psteen1]

That's my 2 cents -- as fortification currently stands in the game, I'll be making sure bards agree *not* to use this song before inviting them in a typical PUG!

Hey spellsinger 2! cool.

Most of the discussion here is centered on epic difficulty and elite raids. What about a typical player (>95% of the population) who is doing a standard quest. Would the song of recklessness be worth it for them, or would this also be a deathwish?

[ArtosKincaid]

Bard Spellsinger II:
Prereqs: Level 12 Bard, Bard Spellsinger I, Bard Energy of Music III, Bard Song Magic III, Bard Lyric of Song II
Benefit: Your further studies into magic have granted you another +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills for a total of +4 to each. You also gain another +100 maximum Spell Points for a total of 200. Any time you finish playing a bard song, you now have a chance to restore a small number of spell points to yourself and all nearby allies. You now have the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant yourself and all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to caster level for all spells, or to apply a spell point regeneration effect to one target. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class.
The chance of spell point pulse on song use is based on Perform skill.

Song of Arcane Might
Benefit: Expend a use of Bardic Music to grant a +1 morale bonus to caster level for spells cast by you and all nearby allies for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per level.

Spellsong Vigor
Benefit: Expend a use of Bardic Music to apply an effect to one target that restores spell points over time.

Done. I'm respeccing as soon as this is released.

[Zenako]

Interesting potential synergy with Bards, the newer items which Regen Songs and the Tier II effects that can trigger Spell Point regen effects as well. Even more so if you have multiple bards all playing or able to play.

Has potentially large implications on permadeath runs. mmmmmm

[Thriand]

Bard Spellsinger II:
Prereqs: Level 12 Bard, Bard Spellsinger I, Bard Energy of Music III, Bard Song Magic III, Bard Lyric of Song II
Benefit: Your further studies into magic have granted you another +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills for a total of +4 to each. You also gain another +100 maximum Spell Points for a total of 200. Any time you finish playing a bard song, you now have a chance to restore a small number of spell points to yourself and all nearby allies. You now have the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant yourself and all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to caster level for all spells, or to apply a spell point regeneration effect to one target. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class.
The chance of spell point pulse on song use is based on Perform skill.

Song of Arcane Might
Benefit: Expend a use of Bardic Music to grant a +1 morale bonus to caster level for spells cast by you and all nearby allies for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per level.

Spellsong Vigor
Benefit: Expend a use of Bardic Music to apply an effect to one target that restores spell points over time.

Is this +1 bonus to caster level also going to make heighten bug out like the epic staff of arcane power does with its +2, causing a significant loss to spell DCs? If so this needs to be fixed immediately, I'd hate to think bards would play a song that would make casters significantly worse.

[Eladrin]

Is this +1 bonus to caster level also going to make heighten bug out like the epic staff of arcane power does with its +2, causing a significant loss to spell DCs? If so this needs to be fixed immediately, I'd hate to think bards would play a song that would make casters significantly worse.

We've fixed that.

[Irinis]

Wrong. 20 Warchanter gets +8/+9 and +2/0, for +10/+9 from both songs.

Uhh... Inspire Courage: 1/1. Bard 8/14/20 each gives 1/1. Attack and Damage both at III give 3/3. That's 7/7 at level 20 for all Bards. Warchanter I gives +1 attack +2 damage to the Inspire Courage.

All else equal:

Pure 20 Warchanter 7/7 base + 1/2 Warchanter = 8/9

Where is this extra +2 attack coming from? I can't find it in the compendium or wiki for Warchanter I.

Pure 20 Spellsinger/Virtuoso 7/7

Splashed Warchanter (min14) 6/6 + 1/2 = 7/8

Splashed Spellsinger/Virtuoso (min14) 6/6.

EDIT: +2 attack to ALL Bards from Inspire Greatness, for the following:

Pure 20 Warchanter 7/7 base + 1/2 Warchanter = 10/9

Pure 20 Spellsinger/Virtuoso 9/7

Splashed Warchanter (min14) 6/6 + 1/2 = 9/8

Splashed Spellsinger/Virtuoso (min14) 8/6.

[Thriand]

We've fixed that.

and there was much rejoicing

[Thriand]

Uhh... Inspire Courage: 1/1. Bard 8/14/20 each gives 1/1. Attack and Damage both at III give 3/3. That's 7/7 at level 20 for all Bards. Warchanter I gives +1 attack +2 damage to the Inspire Courage.

All else equal:

Pure 20 Warchanter 7/7 base + 1/2 Warchanter = 8/9

Where is this extra +2 attack coming from? I can't find it in the compendium or wiki for Warchanter I.

Pure 20 Spellsinger/Virtuoso 7/7

Splashed Warchanter (min14) 6/6 + 1/2 = 7/8

Splashed Spellsinger/Virtuoso (min14) 6/6.

Inspire greatness gives a +2 competence bonus to attack

[ArtosKincaid]

Uhh... Inspire Courage: 1/1. Bard 8/14/20 each gives 1/1. Attack and Damage both at III give 3/3. That's 7/7 at level 20 for all Bards. Warchanter I gives +1 attack +2 damage to the Inspire Courage.

All else equal:

Pure 20 Warchanter 7/7 base + 1/2 Warchanter = 8/9

Where is this extra +2 attack coming from? I can't find it in the compendium or wiki for Warchanter I.

Pure 20 Spellsinger/Virtuoso 7/7

Splashed Warchanter (min14) 6/6 + 1/2 = 7/8

Splashed Spellsinger/Virtuoso (min14) 6/6.

Your numbers are correct as far as I can tell. I don't know where he got the additional +2 to-hit from.

Edit to respond to above post: Everyone gets Inspire Greatness.

[dkyle]

Where is this extra +2 attack coming from? I can't find it in the compendium or wiki for Warchanter I.

He's including Inspire Greatness. "+10/+9 from both songs."

That bonus isn't quite the same as being part of IC at endgame, since it doesn't stack with spectral gloves.