Give us some clues on Bard Changes!

[Angelus_dead]

Thinking through a rough example of deciding whether to use Inspire Recklessness for a boss fight.

Suppose we're fighting Velah with 2 healers, 5 THF guys, and 5 TWF guys (no WF here, because they're immune to the Recklessness penalty). For a regular battle, the healers basically alternate casting Mass Heal according to the hitpoints of the squishiest melee guy (whoever gets too low hp first, which will probably be the same person over and over).

Using Inspire Recklessness gives 5% more DPS to THF and 2.7% to TWF, for 3.85% more average. Assume Velah did not take a feat for stronger crits and is only at 19-20/x2, she'll average one crit threat per swipe, and there's a 10% chance it gets through the reduced Fortification. So the average rate of an actual crit is one per 10 swipes, which doesn't sound too bad (although sometimes there'll be more). These crits change the healer behavior in two ways:
1. When a crit happens, they must react to it and fix that guy, either by spot-healing him or accelerating the next mass heal. (The spot heal costs 45 or 90, because the two healers might double up. The masses are 60).
2. The mass heals need to be performed faster, because the safe hp threshold players can be allowed to sink down to has been increased.

Tossing some vague numbers onto there, the 10% of swipes with a crit lead to +67 spellpoints used. What's the effect of needing to keep players above the level where a single crit is fatal? Say the lower-hp melee guys are 500 hp and a regular hit is 110, we need a mass heal every 3 swipes, or every 2 if crits are possible. So that there
is a 50% increase to the rate of healer mana expenditure, which appears to dwarf the 3.85% they'll save by the fight ending about 10 seconds sooner.

That looks quite bad, although the result can be improved if the lowest-hp melee guys turn off Recklessness, leaving only the higher-hp ones at risk of being critted. But that's problematic for the healers to keep track of, because then the characters driving the mass timing (by being most at risk of death) will have a drastically higher hp bar than those who are actually safer.

[Junts]

Angelus, do you guys really alternate mass heals? Velah's ac is pretty bad and pretty much any healer with at least a 12 str can cast divine power+favor and hit her easily with bardsongs. One should massheal and anyone else with masscure ability can throw mccw if someone take's spike damage or the masshealer happens to be knocked down at the end of a cast (which is pretty much what we do already). This is even better strategy now that radiant aura isn't removed by swinging.

I don't think this is really an unrealistic suggestion for most groups (the one that maybe both healers should melee, which we do pretty regularly, might be), but that you'd have more people out of melee than the render kiter and at most one person casting massheal seems to be to be kind of atypically bad actually.

To be honest, I frequently melee Velah with a +4 greater dragonbane weapon on my sorceror with 24 strength and I don't even bother knowing Master's touch .. and I still hit her enough to have it be worthwhile after I've blown my bar on polar ray, if someone else is kiting (eg multiple casters in the group). If I could find a greater bane quarterstaff or something, I'd hit her almost all the time: her ac is pretty bad.

[Argila]

(ignore wrong post)

[sephiroth1084]

Angelus, do you guys really alternate mass heals? Velah's ac is pretty bad and pretty much any healer with at least a 12 str can cast divine power+favor and hit her easily with bardsongs. One should massheal and anyone else with masscure ability can throw mccw if someone take's spike damage or the masshealer happens to be knocked down at the end of a cast (which is pretty much what we do already). This is even better strategy now that radiant aura isn't removed by swinging.

I don't think this is really an unrealistic suggestion for most groups (the one that maybe both healers should melee, which we do pretty regularly, might be), but that you'd have more people out of melee than the render kiter and at most one person casting massheal seems to be to be kind of atypically bad actually.

To be honest, I frequently melee Velah with a +4 greater dragonbane weapon on my sorceror with 24 strength and I don't even bother knowing Master's touch .. and I still hit her enough to have it be worthwhile after I've blown my bar on polar ray, if someone else is kiting (eg multiple casters in the group). If I could find a greater bane quarterstaff or something, I'd hit her almost all the time: her ac is pretty bad.

Not the norm for any group I've run with on Khyber. I think I've had a group do this once or twice, but only with the exceptional favored souls/clerics on the server (that I've run with), like Numot and probably Yukary.

Typically, there are 2 or 3 healers and 1-2 casters hanging out behind the rocks, and often melees come out to kill the claws.

On my end, I know that my wizard probably can't stand up to Velah until I TR her and get some more HP.

[Junts]

Not the norm for any group I've run with on Khyber. I think I've had a group do this once or twice, but only with the exceptional favored souls/clerics on the server (that I've run with), like Numot and probably Yukary.

Typically, there are 2 or 3 healers and 1-2 casters hanging out behind the rocks, and often melees come out to kill the claws.

On my end, I know that my wizard probably can't stand up to Velah until I TR her and get some more HP.

***, why would you ever attack a claw of velah???

My -bard- can heal the dragon's melee completely by himself for multiple rounds .. what on earth is wrong with healers on your server??


I am reinforced in my conclusion that both you and sirgog need characters on Ghallanda yesterday.

Even ignoring the caster melee (and I do it mostly just to torc, tbh), I'm baffled by basically everything else you guys have said about the raid.

[quityourjobs]

The core of whether or not recklessness will be accepted is how intense a .5-3% critical rate will feel. If it results in too many instant deaths, it will be frowned upon. If it only causes an occasional damage spike, then it'll be appreciated.

The downside of this implementation, as others have noted, is that in many situations its impossible to tell what buffs are on your character due to limited screen space. That alone reduces the player's ability to make a smart decision about cancelling the buff.

[sephiroth1084]

***, why would you ever attack a claw of velah???

Heh. Scrolls? A distraction? I dunno.

My -bard- can heal the dragon's melee completely by himself for multiple rounds .. what on earth is wrong with healers on your server??

I haven't got a healer, so I have no idea.

I am reinforced in my conclusion that both you and sirgog need characters on Ghallanda yesterday.

Hahaha! One day, perhaps. After I've capped Ferrumrym again, an TR'ed Elochka (at least once), and TR'ed Bruucelee (once or twice), and TR'ed Ferrumshot (at least once), and finally try rolling a healer again (made a solemn vow to roll one up before the end of the year, which is swiftly approaching).

It would be fun to do some questing with you. Maybe I'll come into some money and move a character over (this will probably take longer than all of the above ). In any case, I appreciate the sentiment, Junts.

[Angelus_dead]

Angelus, do you guys really alternate mass heals?

Actually I personally don't, but I'm describing the more normal way.

I don't think this is really an unrealistic suggestion for most groups

Your conception of "most groups" seems quite restricted and nonrepresentative.

[Junts]

Actually I personally don't, but I'm describing the more normal way.


Your conception of "most groups" seems quite restricted and nonrepresentative.

Its possible I continue to underestimate the average epic pug group. However, in my experience a vast majority of epic raids that appear as pugs are actually more guild groups of 4-8 who need other people, as true pick-up epci raid runs are exceptionally rare. So I think that 'most groups' is actually a bit above the 'typical pug', because actual pugs for this are not common.

Then again, apparently people attack Claws of Velah instead of having one person kite them around and not take any damage except during a firebreath, so, well, hey, I guess bad play is universal.

[shadowhop]

I think this new song will give a lot of drama and discussions when PUGing. Every time needing to stand aside with a small group using the song then going into defensive stance, because you don't want the -10% fort yourself.
There is just one moment its usefull and that is against the portals in part one of the shroud.

i do like the +10 hp and the proficiency its nice, but it costs 6 extra useless ap which is much.

[sephiroth1084]

Its possible I continue to underestimate the average epic pug group. However, in my experience a vast majority of epic raids that appear as pugs are actually more guild groups of 4-8 who need other people, as true pick-up epci raid runs are exceptionally rare. So I think that 'most groups' is actually a bit above the 'typical pug', because actual pugs for this are not common.

Then again, apparently people attack Claws of Velah instead of having one person kite them around and not take any damage except during a firebreath, so, well, hey, I guess bad play is universal.

I do a lot of true PUGing, although, less and less of late. I tend to avoid groups unless I see one or two people I know to be worth grouping with at this point, as there are simply too many really awful players out there. Well, unless the PUG is being run by someone from one of my DNG guilds (widely known for being poor).

[Raiderone]

Personally i think it is a mistake to increase the warchanter's party buffing even more. A party with a warchanter will now have the following advantages over a bardless group:

5% double strike
DR 5/-
+8 to hit
+9 damage

How are the quest designers supposed to balance around that? Even worse are 6-man epics where it seems the requirements for buffs are even higher. If the third tier gives an ever increasing bonus to party buffs, then soon high level end game parties will end up waiting on a warchanter, in addition to waiting on healers. Pushing a class to the point where there is such a huge difference by having one, or not, is a bad idea as it puts huge pressure to wait around for that specific class.

IMO, warchanter 2 and 3 should have focused on self-buffing, to get these bards closer to the levels of other melees rather than boosting the whole group.

I believe you are wrong on the To-Hit and Damage for a Warchanter.

Pure Warchanter 20th Lvl: Three Tiers Damage and Attack Boost
+9 To Hit
+8 Damage

But I would say majority of Warchanters aren't pure Bard builds.
+8 To Hit
+7 Damage

Pure Virtuoso/Spellsinger: Three Tiers Damage and Attack Boost.
+8 To Hit
+6 Damage

Least likely Non-Pure Virtuoso/Spellsinger:
+7 To Hit
+5 Damage

So the difference between Non-Pure Warchanter to Pure Virtuoso/Spellsinger is +1 Damage, DR -5 and possibly 5% Double Strike (I'd probably take GH Song myself).

[Irinis]

Then again, apparently people attack Claws of Velah instead of having one person kite them around and not take any damage except during a firebreath, so, well, hey, I guess bad play is universal.

On Thelanis the melees hit the Claws during firebreath then they follow us nicely into the moshpit to be killed by glancing blows while we're all fighting Velah and not even worrying about the Claws. Only time kiting is needed is when one pops onto a healer, then the healer kites a bit while healing until the next firebreath. Usually 3 healers and maybe a bard healing occasionally, usually no pots if the pillars went down reasonably.

[geezee]

I believe you are wrong on the To-Hit and Damage for a Warchanter.

Pure Warchanter 20th Lvl: Three Tiers Damage and Attack Boost
+9 To Hit
+8 Damage

But I would say majority of Warchanters aren't pure Bard builds.
+8 To Hit
+7 Damage

Pure Virtuoso/Spellsinger: Three Tiers Damage and Attack Boost.
+8 To Hit
+6 Damage

Least likely Non-Pure Virtuoso/Spellsinger:
+7 To Hit
+5 Damage

So the difference between Non-Pure Warchanter to Pure Virtuoso/Spellsinger is +1 Damage, DR -5 and possibly 5% Double Strike (I'd probably take GH Song myself).

Wrong. 20 Warchanter gets +8/+9 and +2/0, for +10/+9 from both songs.

[sephiroth1084]

I believe you are wrong on the To-Hit and Damage for a Warchanter.

Pure Warchanter 20th Lvl: Three Tiers Damage and Attack Boost
+9 To Hit
+8 Damage

But I would say majority of Warchanters aren't pure Bard builds.
+8 To Hit
+7 Damage

Pure Virtuoso/Spellsinger: Three Tiers Damage and Attack Boost.
+8 To Hit
+6 Damage

Least likely Non-Pure Virtuoso/Spellsinger:
+7 To Hit
+5 Damage

So the difference between Non-Pure Warchanter to Pure Virtuoso/Spellsinger is +1 Damage, DR -5 and possibly 5% Double Strike (I'd probably take GH Song myself).

Well, part of the point is that a party without a bard of any kind is down +7 or more to-hit, and +5 or more damage, and now also -5% doublestrike. It's incredibly difficult to balance quests since anything designed to challenge a party without a bard because a cakewalk with one, and anything designed with a bard in mind becomes significantly more difficult without.

Some discussion has transpired upon the subject, and one suggestion had been to give some other classes weaker versions of the bard's buffs (Purple Dragon Knight, Henshin Mystic and War Priest were the 3 most likely ways for various classes to gain bard-like buffs). Problem is, even if this is the plan, we may not receive any of these PrEs for another year.

[Lord_WC]

Tossing some vague numbers onto there, the 10% of swipes with a crit lead to +67 spellpoints used. What's the effect of needing to keep players above the level where a single crit is fatal? Say the lower-hp melee guys are 500 hp and a regular hit is 110, we need a mass heal every 3 swipes, or every 2 if crits are possible. So that there
is a 50% increase to the rate of healer mana expenditure, which appears to dwarf the 3.85% they'll save by the fight ending about 10 seconds sooner.

No, you need one additional mass heal on every 10 swipes, just as you stated above. As you need a mass heal every 3 swipes, it's 'only' 33%. But just as you said it is totally random who gets that 1 crit, and - while I'll be the first to acknowledge my experience/playtime cannot not match yours - from what I saw that usually 1 guy meleeing is much more squishier than the others. Chances that he get critted is 1/10, so it should be 3,3% more sp used, really in line with the damage output gained.

But that's only a statistical average from my 10-20 runs, so not much...

[sirgog]

Thinking through a rough example of deciding whether to use Inspire Recklessness for a boss fight.

Assume Velah did not take a feat for stronger crits and is only at 19-20/x2, ....

False assumption.

Epic Velah has the nastiest crits of any raid boss in the game that I can think of.

19-20/x3 on most attacks, however one of her attacks (not the bite, which is the most damaging, and not the wing, which is the least) appears to actually be 9-20/x3.

So yeah. Heavy Fortification on eVON6 or bust.


As for healing strategy - one FvS or Clr casts Mass Heal once every 10-12 seconds (optionally from in the melee), if they are tripped at a bad time, the other one throws a mass cure. Every time I tell a group to do this, however, three different healers all throw Mass Heal all at one time, and mana pots are wasted.

Usually if I'm on my FvS, I just melee until one healer is out of mana, then soloheal from there. Even a medium-DPS 12 pass run can be solohealed by a Favored Soul with 60% mana and a few Heal scrolls.

[Raiderone]

Wrong. 20 Warchanter gets +8/+9 and +2/0, for +10/+9 from both songs.

Yes. I missed Inspired Courage (+1/+1).

But that +10/9 is only for a Pure Warchanter versus +9/7 for Pure Virtuoso/Spellsinger.

I would imagine a mucher higher percentage of Warchanters aren't pure builds.

All Non-Pure builds lose Improved Inspired Courage +3 (+1/+1).

[Raiderone]

Well, part of the point is that a party without a bard of any kind is down +7 or more to-hit, and +5 or more damage, and now also -5% doublestrike. It's incredibly difficult to balance quests since anything designed to challenge a party without a bard because a cakewalk with one, and anything designed with a bard in mind becomes significantly more difficult without.

Some discussion has transpired upon the subject, and one suggestion had been to give some other classes weaker versions of the bard's buffs (Purple Dragon Knight, Henshin Mystic and War Priest were the 3 most likely ways for various classes to gain bard-like buffs). Problem is, even if this is the plan, we may not receive any of these PrEs for another year.

Yes. We found that out during a Epic DQ. Losing whatever it maybe +10/+9
or +9/+7 per swing is ALOT...

Ops..we weren't supposed to talk about that horrendous EDQ...My BAD.

It was alot harder without a Bard. All Bards should take all Inspired Attack and Damage Boosts of +3/+3.

[ArtosKincaid]

Well, the only (non-WF) characters that are going to want the 5% double strike buff at the cost of fort are barbs and fighters.

I'm honestly hoping Spellsinger or Virtuoso got some really awesome song changes, because I'm pretty sure I won't be speccing for Warchanter II on my bard.