Give us some clues on Bard Changes!

[Dwarfo]

virtuoso's got no love it seems like...

might have to check out the self healing song though..

[valorik]

[B]

Song of Capering
Benefit: Expend a use of Bardic Music to make a single enemy dance helplessly. A successful Will save negates this effect. (DC is equal to a Perform check - Otto's Nearly Irresistable Dance.)[/INDENT]

The Song of Capering is a pretty strong single target CC effect since it has a diabolically high DC and won't break on damage. We debated about whether or not to make it a point-blank AOE with a standard DC (like a pulse of sphere of dancing), or leave it as a single target super-CC. In the end, we decided that since the Virtuoso already has Enthrallment for AOE-CC, we'd go with a single target effect.

I don't know a single virtuoso who doesn't have the ability to just cast otto's irrisitable dance... maybe this makes the enemy auto crit?

[valorik]

Yeah, the intention was that the DC is charisma, although you'd probably need to equip wis or int item to get to 16-18 as required by the particular spells. (Or buff the stat in whatever way).


I used the theory that the spellsinger is doing wizard-like spells based on intelligence, because although he's got the charisma for sorcerer casting, he doesn't share the "draconic bloodline" or whatever. Wizard magic is something anyone can learn just from training (if they're smart enough).

Wouldn't this cause a problem with new builds vs. old, as new bards could start with signifigantly higher int and make these abilities much stronger than old bards who had no idea int or wisdom would be useful in the future?

[Aerendil]

Eladrin,

Any word on the various Virtuoso issues from PrE I?
(i.e. enthrallment and fascinate having individual icons and the other fascinate abilities not working in conjunction with enthrallment?; hogging up hotbars with fascinate, enthrallment, MoTD, MoTM, etc.?; fascinate-driven abilities such as dominate requiring far too long to use effectively and making the spell versions far more efficient to use; etc.).

Also, can you give us an idea of the "fast healing" rate? Is this on par with town regeneration, or faster? (i.e. closer to a Monk's wholeness of body?)

[Eladrin]

I don't know a single virtuoso who doesn't have the ability to just cast otto's irrisitable dance...

At level twelve?

[valorik]

At level twelve?

How is that going to help any bard at endgame then? Why would any bard choose to go virtuoso for more than 4 levels?

[Angelus_dead]

[B]Bard Virtuoso II

Summary evaluation: I hope this costs only very minimal AP.

You also gain 2 more extra uses of Bardic Music per rest for a total of 5, and the ability to extend the duration of your beneficial songs by an additional 10% for a total of 20%.

Duration and songs are fine, but I think we already had enough of those.

Sustaining Song
Benefit: Expend a use of Bardic Music to apply a temporary fast-healing effect to all nearby allies. It lasts for 24 seconds plus 6 seconds per level.

Impossible to judge the real effectiveness without numbers. I hope it casts faster than other bard music. It would be cool if the duration was extended while the subject is at full health. For example, maybe each tick that doesn't heal anything instead raises the duration by 50% the interval between ticks.

I suppose this'll be fairly nice, if it's along the lines of Radiant Servant aura, with less need to stay huddled.

Song of Capering
Benefit: Expend a use of Bardic Music to make a single enemy dance helplessly. A successful Will save negates this effect. (DC is equal to a Perform check - Otto's Nearly Irresistable Dance.)

So that's something only useful at levels before you learn Irresistable Dance, or on enemies with high SR. Although Virtuosos have a bunch of extra songs, they won't go far when used for singleton CC.

Here's a repeated old suggestion:
Give Virtuosos some ability to do effects like Fascinate and Inspire Courage without spending a song, although the DC or bonus is lessened.

[EinarMal]

Very disappointing....I am not sure any of these are really worth 2AP, plus they cost even more with the pre-reqs.

[Angelus_dead]

At level twelve?

At level 12 you'll have Resistable Dance, and with a DC of 19 it'll often be effectively no worse than DC 34. The list of low/mid level non-bosses with great Will saves is pretty short (Duergar Blackguards? Fire Reavers?).

I didn't notice if Capering Song has a longer reach than Resistable Dance... that could be another benefit I suppose.

[valorik]

At level 12 you'll have Resistable Dance, and with a DC of 19 it'll often be effectively no worse than DC 34. The list of low/mid level non-bosses with great Will saves is pretty short.

I didn't notice if Capering Song has a longer reach than Resistable Dance... that could be another benefit I suppose.

not to mention dancing ball...

[Noctus]

After having a good night´s sleep over the Reckless-song i have come to the conclusion that i wouldnt want this song on my characters (except portal bashing in shroud).

While the DPS increase is nice, it opens up risks of failure where before there had been none and this ends being burdened on the backs of the clerics/FvSes. To the point that i´d rahter categorize the Reckless ong as a hostile debuff, than a nice party-buff.


Just thing about it:

Would you like your Warchanter to song a "debuff-song" the the endboss which lets you get in more crits/sneak attacks? Just for a very small and not really noticeable increase in his DPS output?

~3.7% more DPS deal by the boss, but the amount of successful sneak attacks and crits the group can deal raises by +10%....


If i would want a "buffsong" on my enemys, rather then on myself -- ... -- There is something seriously wrong with it!



----

Please revisit this implementation. Perhaps make it give wielded weapons the vicious property or something of this style like in the Barb´s Frenzy where +STR is balanced with 1d3 more damage to yourself per hit.

I really dont want to have a stern talk with every pug Warchanter i quest with, raid or normal questing, to not use his "cool new song", ever.

[ArtosKincaid]

At level twelve?

Yay for a PrE being questionably useful for 4 levels?

C'mon Eladrin - what's the point of even adding the ability if it's an exact duplicate of a spell they get later that doesn't even have a save?

Virtuoso was already incredibly disappointing as a PrE - giving them another worthless song is not helping.

[EinarMal]

At level 12 you'll have Resistable Dance, and with a DC of 19 it'll often be effectively no worse than DC 34. The list of low/mid level non-bosses with great Will saves is pretty short.

I didn't notice if Capering Song has a longer reach than Resistable Dance... that could be another benefit I suppose.

Plus who cares about level 12-16. Not like you can't make it through gianthold quests without it. Just cast dancing ball.

[Angelus_dead]

C'mon Eladrin - what's the point of even adding the ability if it's an exact duplicate of a spell they get later that doesn't even have a save?

Maybe it ignores SR, so you can use it reliably on epic Cacodemon or epic Vulkoorim Priest. (That's still a rare case, but maybe helpful as an emergency response)

What would be more cool is that if it can Dance a golem or undead...! I doubt it.

[Tumarek]

Well and the fact that songs dont coast SP and with virt II you will have a nice amount of them.

More important songs dont break invisibility or sneak mode so i think they are great...

The regenration spell really could be anything from great to useless. That will have to be tested when it does live.

All these pre's are of no intrested to min/maxers but i sort of welcome that... the game is easy enough, we dont really need bards spamming firewalls or ottos mass irresistable dance with DC's of 80.

[EinarMal]

Let's see a song that duplicates a spell you get 4 levels later or something like this in power hmmm....

Fighter Kensai II
Cost: 2 AP Prereqs: Level 12 Fighter, Fighter Kensai I, any Greater Weapon Specialization feat.
Benefit: Your focus and training improve, granting an additional +1 bonus to Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, and Intimidate skills, Combat Feat DC's, saves against magic, and number of Action Boosts per day. If you possess a Ki bar, you gain 1 additional Ki on criticals and when meditating.
Kensai Power Surge
Benefit: You may expend a Fighter attack boost to focus your energy and spirit, gaining a +8 Insight bonus to strength for a short period of time. If you possess the ability to generate Ki, you generate an additional 2 ki on successful attacks during your surge.
Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery II
Cost: 1 AP Prereqs: Level 12 Fighter, Fighter Kensai II, Fighter <Specific Weapon> Specialization I, Kensai <Specific Weapon> Mastery I, Greater Weapon Specialization: <appropriate weapon type>
Benefit (One handed, ranged, or thrown weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit and damage, and +2 to confirm criticals and critical damage (before multipliers) when using a <weapon>.
Benefit (Two handed weapons): You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a <weapon>.

[Dilbon]

So what's the duration of the capering song? If it's 5 minutes like enthrall then it can be useful.

[ArtosKincaid]

Maybe it ignores SR, so you can use it reliably on epic Cacodemon or epic Vulkoorim Priest. (That's still a rare case, but maybe helpful as an emergency response)

What would be more cool is that if it can Dance a golem or undead...! I doubt it.

I can dance an epic Vulkoorim Priest now with a terrible +5 spell pen. Considering they put separate songs in for that for fascinate, I seriously doubt it'll work on anything you can't dance normally.

I have to say I'm pretty disappointed overall. I'm switching to spellsinger because I really want to try it and the mana regen song is enough of a boost for me to at least see if it's any good, but I'm not holding my breath at this point.

[zealous]

Why are "selfish" abilities good? Because they give the player something useful to do that keeps him busy, instead of buffing someone else and then sitting back until it expires.

Do "selfish" abilities really give a player more useful things to do though?
"Active" abilities certainly do but a static self buff to damage output won't vastly change how a character is played, you will still stand there swinging, just killing things slightly faster.

Why are "unselfish" abilities good? They put less focus on your character and more focus on the group. In a game such as this where amount of time played has a huge impact through knowledge of quests, builds and defenitely twink, the "selfish" abilities generally do not compensate for poor play/twink/build.

The bard as a class is good for new players. It can do a bit of everything allowing you to familiarize yourself with the game and also allow you to contribute as long as you sing on demand. For a new player having a plenthora of useful things to do might be overwhelming, simply keeping up with the group of zerging vets might be a handful on it's own.

To me this seems a plausible design goal they have for the class judged from it's implementation.

Also, focusing the value of Bard specialties on even more buffs (instead of selfish powers) makes groups with that kind of bard harder to balance against those without.

This depends entirely on the nature of the buffs. A straight buff to base damage can easily be compared with how much more personal damage a dedicated melee does.
dps from bard=damage from songs*average base damage modifier*average attack rate*number of player + personal dps - dps of the melee you might choose instead

A buff to tohit can easily break the d20 and render mob AC a unmanageable nightmare. Otoh there are plenty of buffs/debuffs to AC as well as massive discrepancies due to build/twink so that might be a minor issue.


The fundamental fault with this line of reasoning being that having a iconic class such as the bard relegated to a extended tutorial and early entry ticket into raids isn't really a good thing, that could still be accomplished while allowing more complex options.

To me the bard is about music so why not make it that way?
Instead of sing and pike why not have the songs being more involving?
Instead of having a set of preset tunes why not allow improvisation?

What I would like is to have a bard song that's more dynamic and allow improvisation. Could for example have shorter pieces that you could choose between and if you can play very fast or time them very well you get greater benefits. Could also allow for multiple bards stacking better by having things contingent of playing "in tune" and/or synchronized.

Would involve some non trivial design and implementation problems...then again they got the component thingy quite interesting in Vanguard and I have seen some better than decent live band performances in lotro...

Would prefer the bard to be more unique and not simply "gimped <insert class> with nice party buffs".

[Whargoul]

Another alternative that may provide a slight buff to Virtuoso II is to have a songs refresh at a certain rate. For example, Virtuoso II would also let you recover 1 song per minute.

I'm disappointed that the Song of Capering doesn't affect more than 1 target at a time. I also hope the healing Song Magic enhancement affects the Sustaining Song buff.