Give us some clues on Bard Changes!

[quityourjobs]

Honestly, I'm not sure it's worth the 5 AP to pick up WC II on my Bard.

That's what I'm still thinking about.

Disappointed about Spellsinger, it's more of the same with no new functionality attached. We need some new spells to really make this class feel like it's going somewhere. How long has it been since Bards were last updated? 2 years? More?

[Razcar]

Honestly, I'm not sure it's worth the 5 AP to pick up WC II on my Bard.

Me neither. It's essentially 5 AP for 10 HP. GH song? Meh. Bards already have the spell, it's a common clicky on items from Amrath/Xorian and arcane casters have it too. Most War Chanters have weapon prof already from multi-classing. And the song of recklessness is disappointing - 5% Double Strike is too small a bonus to DPS to be worth the dangerous minus to Fort.

So that leaves +10 HP and a little bonus to Intimidate for 5 AP. Sorry Eladrin, War Chanter II is too weak.

[elujin]

and what about virt ?

[The_Cataclysm]

and what about virt ?

Probably will get posted tomorrow.

[Tazarith]

I'm thinking only one revelation per day.

Virt tomorrow

[sirdanile]

Hmmm I wonder how the warchanters doublestrike buff will affect the puppies from hound...

[theboyftw]

why do bard songs take so long to play? trying to suggest an enthralled monster takes like an hour... and the enthralling took an hour too. can't you speed up the time to use these abilities?

also how about a bard song that regens spellpoints? that would make someone choose something other than warchanter.

[Aashrym]

why do bard songs take so long to play? trying to suggest an enthralled monster takes like an hour... and the enthralling took an hour too. can't you speed up the time to use these abilities?

also how about a bard song that regens spellpoints? that would make someone choose something other than warchanter.

Spell singers are getting a song that regens spellpoints. Read thru this thread for more details.

[geezee]

red headed step child of DDO!!!

Good call bro.

[Tumarek]

So far i like the pre's.. WC was the strongest pre so far and their tier II is not so great, while spellsingers where kinda weak and their pre could be really good (depending on how goodn the regeneration is).

I can only hope the virt will be really strong

[Barrelhouse]

At least if Virtuoso is decent, the new PrE's should encourage more variety in builds, party composition, tactics, etc. If they had made Warchanter too powerful, then every Bard would be expected to be a Warchanter. Now there are more tradeoffs to consider, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

[Auran82]

Looking at the second tier PREs and the amrath set bonuses it still baffles me why the warchanter set is like it is.

Is there any chance we can get some kind of short writeup on how the devs see the roles of the various bard PREs? I initially thought something like the below:

Warchater: Best melee buff songs, more of a melee fighter themselves at the detriment of their spell casting

Spellsinger: Best spellcaster, CC/healer through spellcasting

Virtuoso: Best with defensive/CC songs

The healing/cc worked fairly well for the spellsinger up until the release of EU, then we got Amrath and epic where it was almost impossible to land charms/holds either due to saves or flat out blanket immunities, it really started with MOD 8 as there was nowhere a casting bard felt more useless than against the giants in the refuge. About the only spell I really use now on my bard for CC is Ottos because it has no save, I have been thinking of speccing back into Hold Monster, but why bother when wizards/sorcs have mass hold with a better DC. Healing is still possible, but even with empower healing mass cure moderate seems fairly pointless against 500hp+ players when compared with the rest of the mass cure/heal spells that clerics/FVS use.

My bard will probably stay as a warchanter for the moment unless virtuoso is really nice. He was built as a healer/caster but has been a warchanter for a fair while now (with a high CHA, lol)

[maddmatt70]

Big Sigh. I so was loooking forward to spellsinger. I think spellsinger needed a big bump and it did not get it in tier 2. Are they actually going to make umd useful for charisma based bards? Seriously my spellsinger without even trying will have a 60 or so umd and for what so if I die 10 times I can still no fail level 7 scrolls? My bards caster level is also ridiculous and so a +1 is meh its all about a lack of spell selection, dc, and lack of utility. Unless the song of mana regen is good this is all about 100 spell points which with enhancement costs to pick it up I might not even bother picking up spellsinger 2. I might not even pick up spellsinger 2 on my spellsinger 1 charisma bard - how lame is that?

[Noctus]

Less than 100% fort is not an option for most melees - ever.

Not unless you enjoy a cleric being mad at you for going down in 2 seconds in a fight.

Can you maybe remove the song? Sure. If your paying attention to what the bard is singing and when - in among anywhere from 2-6 songs (if a bard is passing out ac songs on anyone or skill songs).

Can you SEE you have the song? Not unless the current "Buffs extend across the bar and you cant see a bunch of buffs" issue is fixed.

So what happens? You turn and grab a drink, go afk 10 seconds, or are in the middle of fighting and dont notice WHICH song among several is being hit on you. You dont toggle defensive fighting because it is a stupid thing to have and a waste of hotbar space - and suddenly 10 seconds into a boss fight you die because of (regular damage) + (2-3 crits), bam dead.

Not everyone has 800 hit points (fun fact - not everyone is a barb yet - fyi), and raids and high level quests already toss out a massive amount of damage. A melee without 100% fort is going to die when high level bosses or monsters are hitting for 30-80 damage per hit already - then start making any of those crits....

So in the middle of a fight, a bard can run up and sing, and you wont see the buff, wont hear the song maybe even over 10 people swinging - and suddenly the cleric is drinking mana pots because suddenly people start taking 3x the damage on a bad roll - and we all already know what the dice are like in this game.

A player that doesnt notice the song might die because of that song. That is called griefing.

Want to make people take more damage from the song? Make it an adder not a multiplier - make it vicious - not add in crits to already high base damage.

There should be no effect in the game other than a self activated one - or a monster attack maybe, that lowers a players fort.

Clerics already get hosed so many times when it comes to needing more healing - adding in more ways to make them drink pots is not a desirable direction.

/signed.

Less than 100% fort is a no-go for high-level content.

Making fights resolve ~3.5% faster and also an estimated ten times riskier is not what i call a "good buff".

Big disappointment on the Warchanter side....




-----

P.S.

Spellsinger is quiet nice.

[Angelus_dead]

Summary of reported problems with tier 2 Bard specialties:

1. Song of Recklessness gives essentially no penalty to Warforged, but a large penalty to other races.
2. Recklessness penalty makes that ability pretty useless in difficult places, but usable when there's no need for help.
3. Recklessness penalty is a bit griefy; Bard players will sometimes get people killed after trying to help.
4. Recklessness penalty not only increases total incoming damage, but also makes that damage more spikey. (a 10% chance of +200% damage is more dangerous than constant +30% damage, even though the average is less)
5. Recklessness benefit is much smaller for TWF characters, making the tradeoff (even) less sensible for them.
6 Declining Recklessness on yourself not as smooth as it could be.
7. Warchanter lacking in "selfish" abilities; it does little to make the Bard herself more useful in melee. (+10 hp and martial prof are something, but actually minor)
8. Warchanter TOD set was apparently designed while thinking that a Warchanter was an offensive caster.
9. Song of Arcane Might has a strangely short duration for such a mild buff.
10. Pumping songs into spellpoints might be effective, but isn't much fun for the bard.
10. Song of Arcane Might's +1 level benefit is meaningless for many spells.
11. Spellsinger lacking in "selfish" abilities; it does little to make the Bard herself more useful at offensive casting or healing. (+100 sp and +2 UMD are something, but actually minor. They let you keep doing your regular capabilities for longer, but not add anything new)

Why are "selfish" abilities good? Because they give the player something useful to do that keeps him busy, instead of buffing someone else and then sitting back until it expires. Also, focusing the value of Bard specialties on even more buffs (instead of selfish powers) makes groups with that kind of bard harder to balance against those without.

[geezee]

12. Intimidate is a terrible idea for 99% of bard characters to ever use.

[geezee]

13. Just because bard is a "support" class does not mean we want to spend all our time helping a player.

[sephiroth1084]

What are some "selfish" abilities (to borrow A_D's expression) that would fit thematically for Warchant, Spellsinger and Virtuoso?

For Spellsinger, I'd imagine granting them something like Heal as a spell-like ability with an SP cost close to that of the spell itself would be a nice start, with perhaps Mass Heal being given at Spellsinger III?

[Rasczak]

13. Just because bard is a "support" class does not mean we want to spend all our time holding another player's jock.

I propose renaming the bard PrE's

Warchanter becomes Waterboy
Spellsinger becomes Tea Lady
Virtuoso becomes Kevin Bloody Wilson


I'm trying so hard to get excited about these changes but it's not working. There isn't enough ingame content (referring to abilities, feats, spells) to make any of these PrE's an exciting addition.

It's almost like it's a way to dump some ap's if I have some left over. The bard has stayed true to pnp in a way yet the other classes have not and the bard ends up holding his instrument after the party has left. I'm tired of my bard being designated driver all the time, give him more of a use than buffing then watching.

Give my virtuoso a way to actually effect a boss with songs whether it's a type of exhaustion that stacks, give the warchanter some sort of melee capability whether it's armour destruction or crippling effects with songs.

A bard used to be overpowered with their music in pnp, now in DDO they a way for other classes to be better, which is all well and good...but what makes my bard better?

[Perspicacity]

Okay, okay. Since you're salivating for information, here's a Bard related enhancement release note:

"War Chanter now has a space in it, because the Prestige Class has one. Oops."

I'll share more in a few days.

I am all over Inspire Recklessness. I'm going to throw it on every AC build I see!

I hope you can apply these songs to yourself.. my Warspacechanter is of the fighting variety...

(Should it be Virtu Oso?)

I loled.