The Problem With Taking 20 Bard Levels

[geezee]

is that you would have been better if you did something else. No offense to the Classic Rocker Build, and other Bards who have remained pure. But given the current system, these bards have to give up an aweful lot not to multiclass.

For a melee-focused warchanter, the problem is obvious. The only melee benefit for taking 20 bard levels instead of 14, is +1/+1 to the song. And you have to give up a BAB to get that. Consider a few of the alternatives:

6 levels of fighter gives you Kensai, +2 STR, +1/+1 attack damage, 4 feats including weapon specialization, haste boosts, 44 hit points (including toughness enhancements), and a bunch of other stuff.

6 levels of rogue gives you a gang of sneak dice from assassin, evasion, and trapsmithing.

6 levels of ranger gives you tempest, which includes a couple TWF feats, hit points, other cool stuff

6 levels of Barbarian gives you +2 CON, hit points, fast movement, sprint, rages, DR, martial weapon training without having to screw around with buggy Master's touch

So to be on par, that's the type of benefit you would have to get from the last 6 levels of bard to justify staying pure on a melee bard. But it's still not so simple. There are a couple problems even with buffing the hell out of Warchanter II and III.

1) "We already have a bard." Since bard buffs dont stack, the second bard is just a gimped fighter. One way around this is to have warchanter give individual bonuses as well as group bonuses. Another way would be to give warchanters the option of different paths that give different bonuses, i.e. an alacrity warchanter or a damage warchanter.

2) Enhancements points are already so tight on a bard. Inspired Attack III, which is mandatory on any bard worth his salt, costs 6 Action Points. So giving bards more cool enhancements will mean that we have to spread ourselves even thinner by getting rid of something else to make room to squeeze them in. If they do add more bard enhancements like Inspired Attack IV, they would have to reduce the cost of a lot of other bard enhancements, in order to make the new ones useable.

For Spellsingers, the problem is worse. With the current capstone, a bard can aproach the same spell DC and spell pen as a cc-focused Wizard or Sorc. The problem is that there is no good spell to cast. In one spell, any other caster can take over an entire battle. Mass hold, greater command, web all change everything.

Besides the fact that bards have no decent nuke, we have mass charm, mass suggestion, and Dancing Ball. A heightened Soundburst costs the same mana as a mass hold, but to what effect? Who would want this Spellsinger in the party when a wizard is so much better? IMO bards need a couple better spells to be a threat as casters.

To make virtuoso competitive, they would need some different buffs and debuffs. A ton more songs so as to be able to use them in every fight. A buff that gives everyone in the party stacking +2 to all stats and +3 to saves. A song that would seriously debuff even a boss. Then people might want them in the party.

Just my 2 copper.

BTW Turbine, I'm looking for a job if you need a Dev

G

[Hafeal]

BTW Turbine, I'm looking for a job if you need a Dev

G

Knock your socks off:

http://www.wbgamesjobs.com/

[Aranticus]

my heal specced, cc based spellsinger has solo healed epics. at L16 he solo healed a shroud with 11 melees. the point i'm making is with a clr, the healing abilities of the bard is pale in comparison. against casters, your cc are not as strong. however, the bard can easily pickup both roles if the party members are solid

besides, who needs anything else but GH, blur, haste, heals

ps umd is a great substitute

[sirgog]

Mass Suggestion is situationally awesome, especially in Epic Into the Depths.

I have a capstone warchanter build, and IMO their biggest weakness isn't lack of personal DPS (they aren't a star DPS-wise, but they do enough to be worthwhile, and two Earthgrab picks rip Epic trash apart like nothing else). It's their low HP. With all the gear that you can count on (GFL, Con +6, +2 Con tome, +45hp Shroud item) they sit at under 450hp, and under 500 even when they have quaffed a Yugoloth Con potion.

If I respec them into Ftr2/Brd18, they pick up an easy 18hp (Ftr Toughness 1 and higher base HP) and two feats, one of which might end up as a second Toughness (ugh, but it might be needed).

[EinarMal]

I am really on the fence about warchanter III coming up. On the one hand I really like 2 Fighter and 2 Rogue levels and it is going to be really hard to give that up. On the other it is about **** time they finished them.

I just don't see how you can make a warchanter without 2 fighter in it. They really need to add a couple songs I think if they don't want to force splashing.

-A song that grants everyone in the party improved critical of choice
-A song that grants hit points to everyone in the party

That would help a lot.

[Hjarki]

That +1/+1 may not seem like much, but it's actually a more significant source of damage than what you get from multi-classing in many cases because it impacts the entire group. With 4 melee, this ends up being (simplistically) +1/+4 - which is awfully competitive with much of what you're mentioning.

And, truthfully, it's even better than that because you're comparing bonuses on a relatively low dps build (a Bard) to bonuses on streamlined melee dps builds. Actual melee classes will attack faster, hit more often, get better criticals. So you'd really need about +6 or +7 damage from those multi-class levels to offset the group benefit - and you really have no hope of offsetting in a raid setting.

Of course, this doesn't apply when you're talking about solo play and going 20 Bard means taking a hard hit on survivability (a good chunk of hit points and evasion).

I do tend to agree that Spellsinger and Virtuoso are pretty weak in their current implementation. However, this is really an extension of problems found in 3.5 D&D - as Bards get to higher levels in PnP, they become enormously dependent on Shadow Evocation/Conjuration (which don't exist in DDO). Bards also get a lot more unique spells, especially Sonic spells, in PnP. While they're not enormously useful, being able to blow apart portals with Sympathetic Vibration would be nice.

[Gunga]

+1 Attack and damage, which you get at level 20, is better FOR THE GROUP than any of your multi-class examples.

Your multiclass options just make it more bearable FOR THE PLAYER to play a bard.

[Dragonhyde]

/shrug If you feel that having a capped bard in group will be a liability then do not group with them None of my capped bards will shed a tear as my SpellSingers, Warchanters or Virts will be able to find a group.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

+1 Attack and damage, which you get at level 20, is better FOR THE GROUP than any of your multi-class examples.

Your multiclass options just make it more bearable FOR THE PLAYER to play a bard.

LMAO, I knew there was a good reason to never play a bard!

Sup Gunga.

[geezee]

+1 Attack and damage, which you get at level 20, is better FOR THE GROUP than any of your multi-class examples.

Your multiclass options just make it more bearable FOR THE PLAYER to play a bard.

So what was the reason you took 2 fighter and 2 barbarian levels on your famous Boomph build?

[sirgog]

+1 Attack and damage, which you get at level 20, is better FOR THE GROUP than any of your multi-class examples.

Your multiclass options just make it more bearable FOR THE PLAYER to play a bard.

IMO this is true in content where the +1 to-hit is imporant.

In, say, Shroud Normal, where to-hit is not needed at all as Harry's AC is so low, a Brd15/Ftr2/Rog3 is better than a Brd20.

In epic DQ2, where almost noone can hit on a 2 with Power Attack active, the Brd20 will be the better choice.

[Gunga]

So what was the reason you took 2 fighter and 2 barbarian levels on your famous Boomph build?

Multiclass options just make it more bearable FOR THE PLAYER to play a bard.

[Gunga]

IMO this is true in content where the +1 to-hit is imporant.

In, say, Shroud Normal, where to-hit is not needed at all as Harry's AC is so low, a Brd15/Ftr2/Rog3 is better than a Brd20.

In epic DQ2, where almost noone can hit on a 2 with Power Attack active, the Brd20 will be the better choice.

Nope. It's not better for the group.

A couple rangers with STWF and a few fighters with HB IV will do far more with the +1 damage than you can do with any multiclass. Anywhere, anytime.

The additional +1 to hit is better for any EPIC.

[geezee]

/shrug If you feel that having a capped bard in group will be a liability then do not group with them None of my capped bards will shed a tear as my SpellSingers, Warchanters or Virts will be able to find a group.

This thread was not intended as a criticism of anyone who chose to stay pure bard. I have always preferred to play pure bards as opposed to multi-classing.

The original post was meant as a petition to balance out our top end abilities with other classes. I'm sure you do fine as a pure bard, as the class is very powerful in the right hands. But when was the last time you saw 3 bards in a raid? How about 3 barbarians? Or 3 Monks? I can say with certainty that I've NEVER joined a raid with 3 bards in it. Why do you think that is?

[Gunga]

LMAO, I knew there was a good reason to never play a bard!

Sup Gunga.

Sup Man.

[gwenniez]

is that you would have been better if you did something else. No offense to the Classic Rocker Build, and other Bards who have remained pure. But given the current system, these bards have to give up an aweful lot not to multiclass.

For a melee-focused warchanter, the problem is obvious. The only melee benefit for taking 20 bard levels instead of 14, is +1/+1 to the song. And you have to give up a BAB to get that. Consider a few of the alternatives:

6 levels of fighter gives you Kensai, +2 STR, +1/+1 attack damage, 4 feats including weapon specialization, haste boosts, 44 hit points (including toughness enhancements), and a bunch of other stuff.

6 levels of rogue gives you a gang of sneak dice from assassin, evasion, and trapsmithing.

6 levels of ranger gives you tempest, which includes a couple TWF feats, hit points, other cool stuff

6 levels of Barbarian gives you +2 CON, hit points, fast movement, sprint, rages, DR, martial weapon training without haveing to screw around with buggy Master's touch

So to be on par, that's the type of benefit you would have to get from the last 6 levels of bard to justify staying pure on a melee bard. But it's still not so simple. There are a couple problems even with buffing the hell out of Warchanter II and III.

1) "We already have a bard." Since bard buffs dont stack, the second bard is just a gimped fighter. One way around this is to have warchanter give individual bonuses as well as group bonuses. Another way would be to give warchanters the option of different paths that give different bonuses, i.e. an alacrity warchanter or a damage warchanter.

2) Enhancements points are already so tight on a bard. Inspired Attack III, which is mandatory on any bard worth his salt, costs 6 Action Points. So giving bards more cool enhancements will mean that we have to spread ourselves even thinner by getting rid of something else to make room to squeeze them in. If they do add more bard enhancements like Inspired Attack IV, they would have to reduce the cost of a lot of other bard enhancements, in order to make the new ones useable.

For Spellsingers, the problem is worse. With the current capstone, a bard can aproach the same spell DC and spell pen as a cc-focused Wizard or Sorc. The problem is that there is no good spell to cast. In one spell, any other caster can take over an entire battle. Mass hold, greater command, web all change everything.

Besides the fact that bards have no decent nuke, we have mass charm, mass suggestion, and Dancing Ball. A heightened Soundburst costs the same mana as a mass hold, but to what effect? Who would want this Spellsinger in the party when a wizard is so much better? IMO bards need a couple better spells to be a threat as casters.

To make virtuoso competitive, they would need some different buffs and debuffs. A ton more songs so as to be able to use them in every fight. A buff that gives everyone in the party stacking +2 to all stats and +3 to saves. A song that would seriously debuff even a boss. Then people might want them in the party.

Just my 2 copper.

BTW Turbine, I'm looking for a job if you need a Dev

G

I 100% totally agree with you i opted the same thing in my 18 bard 2 sorc splash and i said the same thing you just said. THe cc spells of bards seriously suck. But then everyone here is no.. cc is good dont give up cc for spell points well guess what ?!.. a fricking wizzie can do stuf better then us has mass charm mass persuasion powerword stun etc etc and what do we get.. discoballs and a broken suggesion/mass suggesion song that isn''t even perform related i mean its a fricking song.. perform songs.. how dense can you get ?

The problem with bards is that at a pure 20 youre just seen as:

A duracel battery to charge the party up

warchanter prestige is just to strong as it is.. I think it's hilarious that a lvl 14 bard got better buffing songs then a spellsinger/virtuoso level 20 bard at 20 you should get something that actually worth the effort for any path you choose wether it's melee or spellfocused get another capstone already for a pure 20 warchanter bard that gives them doublestrike 10% or a special song that boost atk speed with 10% to everyone to even the splashes and give them some other buttons to press then chain 3 songs and then sit back.

Lack of usefull cc spells end game : discoballs and irrisistible dance are boring give the spellcasters some love with circle of persuasion or mass hold monster. It's not a big deal as a warchanter you cant hit anything anyways with a dc of below 20..

Too much songs : i mean why do you need 23~28 songs is beyond me?! In a normal raid enviroment you use what 6 songs maybe 9 before you see a rest shrine. Find some new songs already to waste a few more song charges. Or give a song for every 3 levels and 5 extra ones for the capstone.

and i can go on and on.. meh not worth it.. i kinda quit anyways i will see what the prestige II and III brings but i don't expect anything tbh.. Next update there will be half orcs everywhere and when the new flavour of the month comes people will tr there 15/5 warchanter into a pure 20 bard or 18 bard/2 other class. Same old same old and nothing changes we're all pinatas that they whack with there stick and hope some money will fall out :P.

[geezee]

I am really on the fence about warchanter III coming up. On the one hand I really like 2 Fighter and 2 Rogue levels and it is going to be really hard to give that up. On the other it is about **** time they finished them.

I just don't see how you can make a warchanter without 2 fighter in it. They really need to add a couple songs I think if they don't want to force splashing.

-A song that grants everyone in the party improved critical of choice
-A song that grants hit points to everyone in the party

That would help a lot.

Or maybe grant Improved Critical and +2 CON to the warchanter only?

[gwenniez]

Or maybe grant Improved Critical and +2 CON to the warchanter only?

The last thing the bard class needs is to have the warchanter prestige line to be buffed so that there will be virtually no virtuosos and spellsingers anywhere anymore. There's like a 85% warchanter 10% spellsinger and 5% virtuosos already as it is..

If anything need some loving it's the virtuosos....................then the spellsingers and then.............................................. .................................................. .................. the warchanters.

[Darkrok]

It really depends on what you want. If your only goal is group DPS then you'd probably want to be one of the varieties of 14/6. If your goal is group DPS and survivability then I'd lean toward the Axesinger build. If you want to be able to dance enemies, heal reliably, buff for maximum duration, provide the best songs to increase the rest of the group's DPS, and still have respectable self-DPS (especially with Divine Power clickies/scrolls) then staying pure is well worth it.

I think all the builds I mentioned would be very fun. I've played the Axesinger to 12 and enjoyed it. While I haven't played a 14/6 all the way through I can certainly imagine how it would play...basically the same as pure only more hp's, more personal dps, less healing/cc/buffing ability. My pure is now nearly level 19 and for me it fits my play style better. I've saved a ton of quests now where the healer was sub-par and I took over. I've main-healed a ton of quests as well. Sometimes that requires some resource usage (heal scrolls and reconstruct scrolls mainly) but you always have the option to pop majors and become a full healer replacement. You can do that on the other builds but not nearly as effectively.

As I mentioned, I thought seriously about going 14/6 after I'd hit level 14. I could have taken the entire THF line and Weapon Specialization on my Warforged Classic Rocker (or added additional Toughness feats, swapped out Improved Critical for Empower Healing, etc...4 feats would add a lot of flexibility). In the end though I wanted to use all of my AP's for casting anyways. I wanted to max out Song Magic, take a bit in each of the crit lines, max out all the HP options (including Warforged Con I/II and Racial Toughness III/IV), max out songs, max out wands/scrolls...once you spend all those AP's there really isn't anything left for Kensai anyways.

Again, these are just my choices. For my playstyle I need all my ap's for hp's or bard abilities. I realize that I'm not the 'max group dps' build. I'm fine with that. I do respectable dps, add more to the other members of the group, and can heal (alternating max/quickened mass light/moderate with a decent sp pool as well as 192 point base heal and reconstruct scrolls), crowd control (irresistible and fascinate/mass suggestion), and provide maximum duration buffs.

[Gunga]

The last thing the bard class needs is to have the warchanter prestige line to be buffed so that there will be virtually no virtuosos and spellsingers anywhere anymore. There's like a 85% warchanter 10% spellsinger and 5% virtuosos already as it is..

If anything need some loving it's the virtuosos.

Good point.

Virtuoso's songs should have a fascinate that holds w/insta crit. The split would go to 25% warchanter 5% spellsinger and 70% virtuosos over night.