The Problem With Taking 20 Bard Levels

[Aashrym]

The point of this thread is that if you wantd to make a cc-focused character, 20 bard levels is not your best bet. You would have been better off rolling a wizard. Sure, 20 bard levels is better than a splash for spellsinger. But as it is 20 bard levels leaves a lot to be desired.

No offense to you pure bards. 20 bard can be strong too, but that's more because you know how to play the character well than because 20 bard is so much better than something else.

I disagree again. Otto's sphere of dancing, Otto's irresistible dance, hold monster, and mass suggestion / mass charm monster are strong CC spells.

What leads you to believe bards are 3rd rate CC?

[geezee]

I disagree again. Otto's sphere of dancing, Otto's irresistible dance, hold monster, and mass suggestion / mass charm monster are strong CC spells.

What leads you to believe bards are 3rd rate CC?

Those are really good spells. It's just that they're not as good as what wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and favored souls get. Which is why you never see an LFM for a cc bard.

[Samadhi]

Your post is just wrong on your melee-bard analysis:

1) All of your multi-class examples are going 14 bard / 6 XXX. This means no AC song. This means that you are already only a partial bard, and cannot properly fill a bard slot under all conditions. This is self-gimping.

2) "Just" +1 to damage, for the entire party? ROFL. Ok, make sure you give me all your +4 tomes, if +2 is just as good. I mean this is really the most laughable point and should have probably been number 1 here. Do *any* of your DPS multiclasses have enough increased DPS to equate to what +1 to damage for an entire party adds? Doubt it.


Now as far as caster bards:
Your argument for spell selection compared to an enchanter sorc/wiz I agree with heartily. Not having Mass Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, Mass Hold Monster reduces effectiveness quite a bit comparatively.

[geezee]

Your post is just wrong on your melee-bard analysis:

1) All of your multi-class examples are going 14 bard / 6 XXX. This means no AC song. This means that you are already only a partial bard, and cannot properly fill a bard slot under all conditions. This is self-gimping.

2) "Just" +1 to damage, for the entire party? ROFL. Ok, make sure you give me all your +4 tomes, if +2 is just as good. I mean this is really the most laughable point and should have probably been number 1 here. Do *any* of your DPS multiclasses have enough increased DPS to equate to what +1 to damage for an entire party adds? Doubt it.


Now as far as caster bards:
Your argument for spell selection compared to an enchanter sorc/wiz I agree with heartily. Not having Mass Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, Mass Hold Monster reduces effectiveness quite a bit comparatively.

If you didnt have a trollish reputation and tone I would argue with you.

[geezee]

Your post is just wrong on your melee-bard analysis:

1) All of your multi-class examples are going 14 bard / 6 XXX. This means no AC song. This means that you are already only a partial bard, and cannot properly fill a bard slot under all conditions. This is self-gimping.

2) "Just" +1 to damage, for the entire party? ROFL. Ok, make sure you give me all your +4 tomes, if +2 is just as good. I mean this is really the most laughable point and should have probably been number 1 here. Do *any* of your DPS multiclasses have enough increased DPS to equate to what +1 to damage for an entire party adds? Doubt it.


Now as far as caster bards:
Your argument for spell selection compared to an enchanter sorc/wiz I agree with heartily. Not having Mass Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, Mass Hold Monster reduces effectiveness quite a bit comparatively.

Aww to hell with reputation.

1) What about 15 Bard/5XXX? Or 16 Bard/4 XXX? Or 18/2? They all have the AC song since you love it so much. Please go back and read the title of the thread before you make an ass of yourself.

2) I never said the +1/+1 you get at level 20 isnt great. But besides the AC song at level 15, and some crappy level 6 spells, that's all you get for the last several levels of bard on a melee. So you think the bard's job is to buff everyone and be a piker?

[Samadhi]

If you didnt have a trollish reputation and tone I would argue with you.

I was not aware I had a trollish reputation. How would you define this? Can you provide example posts?

Aww to hell with reputation.

1) What about 15 Bard/5XXX? Or 16 Bard/4 XXX? Or 18/2? They all have the AC song since you love it so much. Please go back and read the title of the thread before you make an ass of yourself.

How exactly did I make an ass of myself? Sorry, I guess questioning your foul language makes me a troll too... (i think you can disregard the above questions that I now find to be overly rhetorical)

...but on to your point, there are obvious benefits to a plethora of different splash classes. If you are talking optimization, though, then sorry, but DPS is the name of the game in the current incarnation of DDO, and not a single example you provided will provide a bigger DPS bump to a party then going pure would.

2) I never said the +1/+1 you get at level 20 isnt great. But besides the AC song at level 15, and some crappy level 6 spells, that's all you get for the last several levels of bard on a melee. So you think the bard's job is to buff everyone and be a piker?

ROFL you should go read some of my other bard posts if you have time. My honest opinion, is that if your bard can't reliably 1) provide their own DPS AND 2) provide CC AND 3) provide healing, then you are a piker. A bard can and should do it all IMO. So no, if I saw a bard sing their songs and pike, I would squelch them, period. Being a good player and providing your character quality guild can make up for the meager benefits of multi-classing. In terms of DPS, nothing can make up for the total-party DPS loss from not going pure.

[BoBoDaClown]

The point of this thread is that if you wantd to make a cc-focused character, 20 bard levels is not your best bet.

I never understand this logic.

If you want to make a CC focused character, roll a Wizzy,
If you want to make a Heal focused character, roll a Cleric.
If you want to make a DPS focused character, roll a Barb.

Or, I can roll a bard and do all to various degree plus bringing some of the best buffs in the game.

[geezee]

ROFL you should go read some of my other bard posts if you have time. My honest opinion, is that if your bard can't reliably 1) provide their own DPS AND 2) provide CC AND 3) provide healing, then you are a piker. A bard can and should do it all IMO. So no, if I saw a bard sing their songs and pike, I would squelch them, period. Being a good player and providing your character quality guild can make up for the meager benefits of multi-classing. In terms of DPS, nothing can make up for the total-party DPS loss from not going pure.

If you can do all those things on your bard, and with your maxed out buffs, why would you want another bard in your group? What could a second bard possibly bring to the table besides redundant buffs and weak dps?

[Aashrym]

Those are really good spells. It's just that they're not as good as what wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and favored souls get. Which is why you never see an LFM for a cc bard.

Clerics and favored souls? I can see with wiz maybe some advantages, sorc not so much. Can you elaborate more on the benefits of those 4 classes please. I think I would like some examples to refute.

[geezee]

Ok I give up. This whole thread is wrong. Bards are fine. Hopefully the devs don't give us anything else or we will be overpowered.

GG

[Aashrym]

Now as far as caster bards:
Your argument for spell selection compared to an enchanter sorc/wiz I agree with heartily. Not having Mass Charm Monster, Dominate Monster, Mass Hold Monster reduces effectiveness quite a bit comparatively.

Bard do get mass charm monster

Dominate monster isn't such a stretch better than suggestion, charm monster, or dominate person. I prefer suggestion over charm or dominate tho.

Mass hold monster is nice but what it really brings is DPS and has recurring saves. I can accomplish adding party DPS by inspire courage, stop the swarm with fascinate, and still single target hold monster for auto crit. I would love to have mass hold monster but I'm thinking I still hold my own in the CC with fascinate to back me up.

[Aashrym]

Ok I give up. This whole thread is wrong. Bards are fine. Hopefully the devs don't give us anything else or we will be overpowered.

GG

Your original argument was that there was not point in going to level 20 with a bard (correct me if I misinterpreted that).

I think lvl 14, 15, or 16 have valid reasons for cutoff points to multi. I disagree that there is no reason to go to to level 20 because of the capstone and the final inspire bonus. I think that any bard who focuses on the spells for healing or CC need to go to level 20 in order to be competitive.

That doesn't make a bard over-powered, but I do believe there are very valid reasons to go to level 20 as a choice.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The point of this thread is that if you wanted to make a cc-focused character, 20 bard levels is not your best bet.

You are way off base here. I don't know of ANY of the long time bards (including the troll you called out) that would argue, if your #1 weapon of choice is crowd control, you NEED to be pure. Take it from someone who prides himself on the use of crowd control. That capstone is GOD to a CC bard. You truly need to specialize in CC to have any chance of landing the majority of your spells on a regular basis in this game.

However, many of the popular multiclass bard splits will offer far greater contribution in the current game than a pure build, at least until you get to epic. Better to-hit, better strength, better hp, more speed, evasion, favored enemy, barbarian rage, sprint boosts, haste boost are just some of the benefits multi classes can choose from. Unless your bard literally LIVES in epic content, you will never be able to provide DPS anywhere NEAR a properly specced multi (and remember, a multi can "live in epics" and get the same gear too!)

No one has argued that +1 isnt better then zero, but its ALL SITUATIONAL. Sometimes you need the +1 to hit, many times you dont. Sometimes you need the evasion, many times you dont. Sometimes you need the hit points, many times you don't.

What I'm saying is there's room at the top for everyone. No need to listen to anyone insisting you roll your bard their way.

[Samadhi]

If you can do all those things on your bard, and with your maxed out buffs, why would you want another bard in your group? What could a second bard possibly bring to the table besides redundant buffs and weak dps?

Because a bard with 98% of one of your hybrids is not a significant drop in DPS compared to the gain in versatility. Currently there have been an influx of a lot of well built bards on Ghallanda (something often not evident in the past where it was all "i only melee" or "i only CC" gimps). We have run Edragon with no clerics/fvs, we have run almost every quest with half the "DPS slots" being bards, we have ran with no casters / only bards covering typical arcane duties (CC or kiting in dragon/tower). These aren't specialized builds - these are the same 5 toons. Sure, everyone could roll several types of bards to have one for every situation, but they could just as easily roll a cleric, a caster, and a barbarian to cover every situation. The difference is that the bard that can bring versatility can join ANY group and contribute meaningfully in the way that the party most needs them to. Your "weak" DPS argument is simply meaningless in the current game, where gear is just more important. (Now TBH this doesn't mean I support this direction for the game, but the fact that I dislike something about the game, does not change the accuracy of the assessment).

[AltheaSteelrain]

Because a bard with 98% of one of your hybrids is not a significant drop in DPS compared to the gain in versatility. Currently there have been an influx of a lot of well built bards on Ghallanda (something often not evident in the past where it was all "i only melee" or "i only CC" gimps). We have run Edragon with no clerics/fvs, we have run almost every quest with half the "DPS slots" being bards, we have ran with no casters / only bards covering typical arcane duties (CC or kiting in dragon/tower). These aren't specialized builds - these are the same 5 toons. Sure, everyone could roll several types of bards to have one for every situation, but they could just as easily roll a cleric, a caster, and a barbarian to cover every situation. The difference is that the bard that can bring versatility can join ANY group and contribute meaningfully in the way that the party most needs them to. Your "weak" DPS argument is simply meaningless in the current game, where gear is just more important. (Now TBH this doesn't mean I support this direction for the game, but the fact that I dislike something about the game, does not change the accuracy of the assessment).

So you do support in a way, multiclassing, just not in this game, the environment and reality?

This is not a bard specific question.

[Samadhi]

Bard do get mass charm monster

Yeah I apologize for my momentary retardation.

I do find Dominate significantly better than Charm/Suggestion, but TBH my enchantment sorc and my more caster-focused bard have both been on the back burner recently, so I won't claim expertise at the moment.

[Samadhi]

So you do support in a way, multiclassing, just not in this game, the environment and reality?

This is not a bard specific question.

Hehe nice.

I love multiclassing and, one of the ways I think this game has really degenerated, is because it has become more and more restricted with the addition of PRE's and capstones. The reality is, though, that for a "party" build, bards are rarely gaining more than they sacrifice by multi-classing. If you primarily solo, completely different story, but nothing in the OP seemed to suggest that he was referring to solo builds (which are often different in several ways from more traditional builds).

[AltheaSteelrain]

Hehe nice.

I love multiclassing and, one of the ways I think this game has really degenerated, is because it has become more and more restricted with the addition of PRE's and capstones. The reality is, though, that for a "party" build, bards are rarely gaining more than they sacrifice by multi-classing. If you primarily solo, completely different story, but nothing in the OP seemed to suggest that he was referring to solo builds (which are often different in several ways from more traditional builds).

True. Multiclassing is an art, but this artform is very difficult to accomplish with each passing update.

I still prefer to multiclass regardless of such restrictions and suboptimal min maxing my bards for a more "balanced and able" build that fits my style and personality.

Though of course, epics should be a different story.

I am looking forward for the incoming multiclass discrimination later on in my DDO life.

[Emili]

You are way off base here. I don't know of ANY of the long time bards (including the troll you called out) that would argue, if your #1 weapon of choice is crowd control, you NEED to be pure. Take it from someone who prides himself on the use of crowd control. That capstone is GOD to a CC bard. You truly need to specialize in CC to have any chance of landing the majority of your spells on a regular basis in this game.

However, many of the popular multiclass bard splits will offer far greater contribution in the current game than a pure build, at least until you get to epic. Better to-hit, better strength, better hp, more speed, evasion, favored enemy, barbarian rage, sprint boosts, haste boost are just some of the benefits multi classes can choose from. Unless your bard literally LIVES in epic content, you will never be able to provide DPS anywhere NEAR a properly specced multi (and remember, a multi can "live in epics" and get the same gear too!)

No one has argued that +1 isnt better then zero, but its ALL SITUATIONAL. Sometimes you need the +1 to hit, many times you dont. Sometimes you need the evasion, many times you dont. Sometimes you need the hit points, many times you don't.

What I'm saying is there's room at the top for everyone. No need to listen to anyone insisting you roll your bard their way.

Until certain capstones I could say the same of many classes... although this is more pronounced in the bard class - that is due to the lack of any real upgrades to the class for some time.

I.e.

Rogue... until assasin III and deadly shadow was added - you'd be crazy to be pure rogue.

Paladin ... until Kotc III and weapons of good - you'd be crazy to stay pure pally.

Fighter ... Here especially Kensai III and weapon alacrity created incentive for pure fighters - what's really crazy now is they've lessened the value of that capstone and are offering more classes the same ablity earlier... fact is already people are looking such as 'meh'. Expect even more splashing from now on.

Bard... Bard Musical Prodigy (was all) outside of basic DnD rule...

Bards unfortunately had not been upgraded very much in a long time... they added a capstone really of value to a non-chanter PrE. and while it's a good capstone for them ... one tier of PrE (level six) only exists... DDO is DnD + enhancements <- not many people realize how those enhancements are such a decissive factor in game (they comprise up to a 25% increase in character base effectiveness in some cases).

I've requested for a long time that they pay some attention to bards... I've asked for more bard enhancements, bardic spells, more bardic feats and even more bardic like lute (excuse me) "loot" many people came back stating bards were fine... I knew they were not what they could be, they're not on par with other classes, the generalization of them poise such that reaching tier for "adaquate" is pressing them to that role.

[JasonJi72]

I have tried several classes, and I really do enjoy playing a bard. Some have said that it suits my playstyle well.

My first was a pure virtuoso. I deleted him, for 2 reasons.
1. I found that the other prestige classes could fascinate just as well.
2. Sometimes it was hard to get accepted into groups. The fools. He was str con cha based with a falchion, and almost always had some of the highest kill counts at mid levels.

I am working on a multiclass warchanter arcane archer trapmonkey right now. It is a difficult build that required a lot of thought, but it is fun to play, and can solo well. The biggest problem I am having is with gear not with play or build. I do know of the faults, and my next one will be better.

One thing I found interesting is that I was able to get into groups based on my trap skills. Some PUG's still have fools in them.

Regarding what the next update will bring, I hope it will be viable, and not so overpowered that they feel the need to over nerf it later.

Virtuoso: This guy needs some help. I would like to see something that makes him a better fighting bard, since that is what he is supposed to be according to the character creation screen.
-Add cha bonus to saves.
-A self buffing song.
-further benefits to fascinate such as a shorter casting time and/or a hold effect on a crit.

Warchanter and Spellsinger: Just make what they have better.

I would really like to play a pure or close to pure Virtuoso. Don't ask, I don't know why.

Bring on the Half Elves!