The Problem With Taking 20 Bard Levels

[AltheaSteelrain]

Just my opinion... but 6 AP for +1 is never worth it. 3 Capped Bards... and not one onf them I'd trade out 6 AP for a +1 to hit.

I always have my songs maxed at level (bard 14), no matter the multiclass splash

[Valindria]

<--- Level 20 bard twf WC here that casts caster rage on all melees in shroud.

Party DPS > Personal DPS

One of my favorite quotes was from a guild cleric in Wrath of the Flame say "hey guys I can actually hit something!!" And another member saying "Yeah its probably from the bard"

I add +12 to hit with 2 songs, rage, and haste (also +10 to damage).

I know the advantages of multi class bard builds, but I love my pure bard. I really hope the tier 2 and 3 PrEs are awesome.

[Rav'n]

Which goes to show you... there's no wrong way to build your Bard.... sometimes you just run into the wrong people playing them....

I think if you took the top 10 Bard builders/Players on the Forum... you'd see 10 different Bards. And that might be 10 different War Chanters.

(*Note- I'm not one of them, I'm just a guy that enjoys playing Bards more than every other class combined ...that and I re-write a pretty mean song... )

[Tazarith]

Bards need something that's just for them,something like focusing chant but not level 1 something that benefit just us.

Make the capstone so that a bard is more suceptible to music and benefit more from his own music. It's only natural a trained ear hears music better then a non trained fighter/clerics insert random class ear. How can you be a musical prodigy at level 20 and still experience music the same way as joe average ?

This will also welcome more bards into a party. If one bards greatly increases the other bard performance by just playing songs thats only understandable for other bards ears.

I like where you're going with this. Making Song effects stack say when played in unison would create some interesting possibilities.

Perhaps to not go too overboard the effect would not be cumulative but say 1.5x times the effect and with a
negative to perform checks due to the difficulty of harmonizing. The DC and perform checks would have to be all worked out for balance...but

that my friends would be a great Capstone ability.

HARMONY - (as a bonus feat @ lvl 20) - When active, a song's effect is increased x1.5 when played in unison with atleast one other bard. The effect increases x0.25 with each additional song played together with Harmony active.

Opening the door for multiple bards in parties. What does everyone think of that?

Overpowered or overdue?

[Darkrok]

Not a healing specced bard, human;
toughness
mental toughness
quicken
heighten
extend
spell, enchantment I and II
and spell pen I.
Think that's it, my dc is just as good as any caster. For enchantment spells.

At work, this is all from memory since haven't changed any feats for awhile. Why fix it if it ain't broken.

I can honestly see it from your perspective. As a CC bard the cheapest pre would be Spellsinger but it's only cheap if you're interested in healing. If you're doing CC to the point that you're ignoring the healing ap's then I can certainly see your decision. It'd still be worth trying to fit in because of that one extra point of DC but if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit.

[Laggin]

I can honestly see it from your perspective. As a CC bard the cheapest pre would be Spellsinger but it's only cheap if you're interested in healing. If you're doing CC to the point that you're ignoring the healing ap's then I can certainly see your decision. It'd still be worth trying to fit in because of that one extra point of DC but if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit.

Don't misunderstand, I would love some "bard only" spells.

A bard by definition is a support player(to make the party better) so if that's not your style I would stay away.

[ColinQ]

HARMONY - (as a bonus feat @ lvl 20) - When active, a song's effect is increased x1.5 when played in unison with atleast one other bard. The effect increases x0.25 with each additional song played together with Harmony active.

Opening the door for multiple bards in parties. What does everyone think of that?

Overpowered or overdue?

So a party of 12 bard would add 425% to their song effect
that = 34 dmg per hit (assuming all splash build with 8dmg)

it would be a glorious concert

[maddmatt70]

I am going to disagree with alot of the posters in here and argue that in a 12 person party some 14 bard 6 other class builds add up to more dps then a level 20 bard the only exception is where the +1 to hit makes a difference for the entire party.

The biggest thing a level 20 bard brings to the table really and I know you will not like this gezee is healing. At level 16 a bard gets cure moderate wounds mass and at level 16-20 a bards get more spell points to use for healing.

Bards can still flat out heal in any quest in the game and are really better as primary healers then clerics or fvs because with a bard as primary healer in a party the quest gets completed faster. The bard for that matter has better natural cc ability (fascinate, ottos irre, mass charm) then Clerics/FVS. Clerics and FVS in alot of ways are in poorer shape then bards because they add almost nothing to a party other then healing these days and if another class can do the healing required for a give dungeon or raid the party is better off then with those classes.

[AltheaSteelrain]

I am going to disagree with alot of the posters in here and argue that in a 12 person party some 14 bard 6 other class builds add up to more dps then a level 20 bard the only exception is where the +1 to hit makes a difference for the entire party.

I think matt, this is the whole point of going level 20 bard: getting people to hit with power attack on on epics.

But yeah, I agree with your statement especially as a player who spends time playing with PUG groups.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I am going to disagree with alot of the posters in here and argue that in a 12 person party some 14 bard 6 other class builds add up to more dps then a level 20 bard the only exception is where the +1 to hit makes a difference for the entire party.

The biggest thing a level 20 bard brings to the table really and I know you will not like this gezee is healing.

Healing and the +1 to-hit ARE the biggest benefits of staying pure. 14/6 (and I believe 16/4 as well) I'll agree offer significantly more DPS than pure builds, especially in quests where the +1 party to-hit boost doesn't come into play (with well built toons with preferred gear). Granted in epics, that extra +1 would be the sh!znit. So there will always be gray area to this argument.

I think it always comes down to that spell singers and virtuosos simply need more options available to them. It shouldn't be just about healing.

[geezee]

Then new songs look nice and all, but they really don't look like anything to write home about. We won't be able to use them constantly, as a lot of our songs are already used up for buffing and for cc.

It's gonna take more than 2 songs to make any melee stay pure bard. They havent said at what level the new presitge classes will be available. But there needs to be a considerable benefit to staying pure as well. Right now the capstone doesnt help a strength-based melee bard much at all.

Spellsingers are even worse off than warchanters. 2 new songs will not fix the weakness of bard casting cc. Without new spells spellsingers will still be third rate cc. It looks to me like spellsingers will continue to be relegated to healing roles in the end game.

And virtuosos? Need a lot more help than 2 new songs.

[Darkrok]

Then new songs look nice and all, but they really don't look like anything to write home about. We won't be able to use them constantly, as a lot of our songs are already used up for buffing and for cc.

It's gonna take more than 2 songs to make any melee stay pure bard. They havent said at what level the new presitge classes will be available. But there needs to be a considerable benefit to staying pure as well. Right now the capstone doesnt help a strength-based melee bard much at all.

Spellsingers are even worse off than warchanters. 2 new songs will not fix the weakness of bard casting cc. Without new spells spellsingers will still be third rate cc. It looks to me like spellsingers will continue to be relegated to healing roles in the end game.

And virtuosos? Need a lot more help than 2 new songs.

While I do really feel that pure bards are perfectly viable - that the healing, cc, and flexibility makes up for the lost personal dps - I agree that the songs alone would make for a lackluster tier 2 of the PrE. That said, I'm assuming until the devs state otherwise that the songs are just part of what we'll be getting.

For Warchanters I'm hoping to see full BAB and Martial Weapon Proficiency. Neither actually gives the bard something they can't already get through a level 1 spell and clickies/scrolls but their new songs sound like they'll arguably be the best of the bunch as they'll further increase dps and Warchanters are already the preferred PrE.

For Spellsingers I agree that new spells would probably be the best option. Spellsingers are focused on the casting end of things and as things stand now they lack in selection for CC spells. I wouldn't be averse to seeing them get extra spells similar to the cleric domains in pnp where they get to cast extra spells as if they were in their spell book even though they're not. I'm not sure which spells would be appropriate but I'd consider a mass hold person of some sort as that's what it takes to be considered top tier cc right now.

For Virtuosos I almost think the same thing is in line - something that makes Enthrall provide critical hits.

[Aashrym]

Only going to 14, 15, or 16th level costs caster levels and affects anything based on caster levels.

That's not as bad for bards who rely more on bard songs and feat selection but a spellsinger is really hurting their spell casting focus not going to 20.

[geezee]

Only going to 14, 15, or 16th level costs caster levels and affects anything based on caster levels.

That's not as bad for bards who rely more on bard songs and feat selection but a spellsinger is really hurting their spell casting focus not going to 20.

I disagree.

As it is, a spellsinger doesnt have much spellcasting to hurt.

[Aashrym]

I disagree.

As it is, a spellsinger doesnt have much spellcasting to hurt.

I disagree, the healing is based on caster level and so is the SR check. There is nothing wrong with mass suggestion, sphere of dancing, hold monster, or irresistable dance on the bard list. People stress overcoming SR by using feats all the time in builds. Taking the actual levels works better than cross classing and taking feats. And the capstone puts those DC's on par with sorc/wiz.

I might not be able to mass hold monster, but I can very easily stop swarming with spells and I can hold monster. I'd be crazy to give up caster levels or the bard capstone for CC'ing that way. On top of that I do have maxed out songs and I can haste/rage/displace for longer than your 14th level bard multi by a considerable amount. CC/healing bards do need those levels.

[geezee]

Ok, so now you're talking about joining a group as a healer. In which case 20 bard levels are better than not. But wouldn't it be nice if spellsinger could fill a different role?

[Aashrym]

Ok, so now you're talking about joining a group as a healer. In which case 20 bard levels are better than not. But wouldn't it be nice if spellsinger could fill a different role?

CC is pretty handy sometimes. Usually more situationally useful than not, hence the healing and max inspire courage enhancements to still be useful. +7/+7 is behind the +7/+8 bonus for a multi but close enough in my opinion that the caster levels are worth it.

We definitely need more spell selection, I absolutely agree. I find I always choose the same spells and then start looking at what ever is left over and then never casting it. I'm curious what the new enhancements are going to bring.

Right now I have a human spellsinger, human warchanter, both pure, and a dwarven bard15/rogue3/fighter2.

Everyone likes the warchanter for the maxxed out inspire courage and he'll haste alot. He doesn't have the personal DPS the dwarf has, not even close. And his ability to heal would contribute to the stereo type that bards can't heal and don't make good casters.

The dwarf axesinger build does nice dps, has less of a bonus to the party. He's not bad to play really, but more 'me' less 'team'. And his casting ability sucks compared to my spellsinger in a big way.

I like playing bards for the fascinate and the inspire courage. Big bonus to melee and an unmatched CC DC. After that I want to see the difference my contribution is making to the party. DPS'ers are everywhere and I prefer to be a caster type anyway. When I heal I'm being useful. When I haste I'm being useful. When I see the party struggling and I add some CC to turn things around I feel very useful. I need lvl20 for that one.

Most groups are looking for inspire courage when they look for a bard. A warchanter can easily skip lvl20 and has a better inspire than a spellsinger or a virtuoso. Either of those other 2 PRE's requires the lvl20 bonus just to compete with a warchanter. And once we're looking at lvl20 anyway we're looking at the capstone and gearing towards the existing spells, which means CC/healing.

If wasn't enjoying CC/healing with my bard I would be much better off with another class. And since I am enjoying myself then I can't afford to give up lvl20.

Post is a bit long, so I apologize. Hopefully the reasoning behind my opinion is clear. And that is a vote yes for more spells

[Emili]

CC is pretty handy sometimes. Usually more situationally useful than not, hence the healing and max inspire courage enhancements to still be useful. +7/+7 is behind the +7/+8 bonus for a multi but close enough in my opinion that the caster levels are worth it.

We definitely need more spell selection, I absolutely agree. I find I always choose the same spells and then start looking at what ever is left over and then never casting it. I'm curious what the new enhancements are going to bring.

Right now I have a human spellsinger, human warchanter, both pure, and a dwarven bard15/rogue3/fighter2.

Everyone likes the warchanter for the maxxed out inspire courage and he'll haste alot. He doesn't have the personal DPS the dwarf has, not even close. And his ability to heal would contribute to the stereo type that bards can't heal and don't make good casters.

The dwarf axesinger build does nice dps, has less of a bonus to the party. He's not bad to play really, but more 'me' less 'team'. And his casting ability sucks compared to my spellsinger in a big way.

I like playing bards for the fascinate and the inspire courage. Big bonus to melee and an unmatched CC DC. After that I want to see the difference my contribution is making to the party. DPS'ers are everywhere and I prefer to be a caster type anyway. When I heal I'm being useful. When I haste I'm being useful. When I see the party struggling and I add some CC to turn things around I feel very useful. I need lvl20 for that one.

Most groups are looking for inspire courage when they look for a bard. A warchanter can easily skip lvl20 and has a better inspire than a spellsinger or a virtuoso. Either of those other 2 PRE's requires the lvl20 bonus just to compete with a warchanter. And once we're looking at lvl20 anyway we're looking at the capstone and gearing towards the existing spells, which means CC/healing.

If wasn't enjoying CC/healing with my bard I would be much better off with another class. And since I am enjoying myself then I can't afford to give up lvl20.

Post is a bit long, so I apologize. Hopefully the reasoning behind my opinion is clear. And that is a vote yes for more spells

I CC all the time in epics on my spell singer even with another arcane in group... save me from having to heal peoples arses so much. btw... my spell singer is not very hard pressed heal spec'd - more an anomaly.

... and while it does not seem like much but enroute to hound today as more than half the party went back for someone who unfortunately fell and the others went afk in wait... I started clearing the second next to last instance... as people came up the ramp and seen the last few fascinated/dancing mob they asked me where's the rest of the beholders and renders? - thought in my mind ( well do not be silly I cleared them. ), and this be a little spell singer bard running off finesse for melee.

A character be what you make of it... we play them to their strong points and work around their weak points ... all classes aside, what makes a bard fun is the versitility within it.

[Aashrym]

I CC all the time in epics on my spell singer even with another arcane in group... save me from having to heal peoples arses so much. btw... my spell singer is not very hard pressed heal spec'd - more an anomaly.

... and while it does not seem like much but enroute to hound today as more than half the party went back for someone who unfortunately fell and the others went afk in wait... I started clearing the second next to last instance... as people came up the ramp and seen the last few fascinated/dancing mob they asked me where's the rest of the beholders and renders? - thought in my mind ( well do not be silly I cleared them. ), and this be a little spell singer bard running off finesse for melee.

A character be what you make of it... we play them to their strong points and work around their weak points ... all classes aside, what makes a bard fun is the versitility within it.

Sounds like a typical day in the life of a bard, lol. I had a similar experience the other night in reavers and someone told me I was going to die when I moved ahead because I was a spellsinger. CC can easily trump hp+healing.

[geezee]

I disagree, the healing is based on caster level and so is the SR check. There is nothing wrong with mass suggestion, sphere of dancing, hold monster, or irresistable dance on the bard list. People stress overcoming SR by using feats all the time in builds. Taking the actual levels works better than cross classing and taking feats. And the capstone puts those DC's on par with sorc/wiz.

I might not be able to mass hold monster, but I can very easily stop swarming with spells and I can hold monster. I'd be crazy to give up caster levels or the bard capstone for CC'ing that way. On top of that I do have maxed out songs and I can haste/rage/displace for longer than your 14th level bard multi by a considerable amount. CC/healing bards do need those levels.

The point of this thread is that if you wantd to make a cc-focused character, 20 bard levels is not your best bet. You would have been better off rolling a wizard. Sure, 20 bard levels is better than a splash for spellsinger. But as it is 20 bard levels leaves a lot to be desired.

No offense to you pure bards. 20 bard can be strong too, but that's more because you know how to play the character well than because 20 bard is so much better than something else.