The Problem With Taking 20 Bard Levels

[geezee]

Buffing is the one and only thing that bards do better than everyone else. There is a sense among a lot of players that the bard's job is to sing some songs, put down haste, and after that no one knows or cares what the bard does.

As most of the players chiming in on this thread are veteran bards, we have probably all had the exhilirating experience of saving a wipe on a raid boss, with a combination of multitasking that is only possible on a bard: buffing, DPS, healing, cc, and ressurection. But this takes a lot of practice and dedication to learning the class and getting better. And definitely is not possible for new, or even good players who are not used to playing the bard class.

As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, that +1/+1 to your song that you get by staying pure bard is actually quite huge when you multiply it over a raid. But I have seen many threads on this bard forum where good players are actually debating whether or not to spend the 6 action points on Inspired Attack III.

The reason I started this thread is to start a discussion about what could be done to spruce up the bard class so that we dont feel like we're forced to take 6 bard levels for +1/+1, or to sing our songs and go afk, as Einer Mal mentioned.

Do we have to be gimped just because we want to stay pure?

[EinarMal]

I think the main problem is that Bards are welcome in a group (one anyway). They help everyone be better, but have been allowed to get too low on the personal power scale.

That is a problem not because of utility but just fun. No one wants to just buff and then feel like they can't contribute enough after that.

[Gunga]

I think the main problem is that Bards are welcome in a group (one anyway). They help everyone be better, but have been allowed to get too low on the personal power scale.

That is a problem not because of utility but just fun. No one wants to just buff and then feel like they can't contribute enough after that.

Meh.

I see some pretty powerful level 20 bards out there...they play better than mine.

The only reason to multiclass is to make it more enjoyable for the PLAYER. If you have the patience to find the right Pure Class build and gear them up, Level 20 Bards can be formidable end game raiders/soloers.

[Bilger]

Well it has to be actually fun to play a spellsinger or what's the point? If you can't cast anything yourself that really is effective, what are you going to do after you sing the songs?

I mean there might be a few people who would like to sing and then go afk for 5 minutes before re-buffing I guess.

The only real option right now in a lot of cases is healing on a spellsinger if CC is not an option. I don't think all spellsingers really want to be healers. A lot of the point of the enhancement and capstone is spell DC, but the actual list of spells that are any good is very small or zero in some cases.

I would love for more spells for my spellsinger a mass hold would be awesome but not holding my breath.

A CC specced SS can be very effective not as good as wiz because of mass but if can heal and cc things effectively ya can take 3 spots and have you and five dps in epic and run straight through it np. If with good players.

All bard types need a lil love but bards can be in the right hands and right builds one of the strongest assets to a party in game.

Saying that, I agree with you are spell list needs work and is lacking and we need a lot more there to make SS more attractive.

If built right though a SS can be a viable secondary dps option the double tr I am in middle of on main will be able to melee/cc/heal decent strength(28-34, 28 standing) 450+ hp and 42 char standing(no yugo, ship buffs, or store pots). Not a great dps but will hold his own.(any lil bit helps)

[EinarMal]

I would love for more spells for my spellsinger a mass hold would be awesome but not holding my breath.

A CC specced SS can be very effective not as good as wiz because of mass but if can heal and cc things effectively ya can take 3 spots and have you and five dps in epic and run straight through it np. If with good players.

All bard types need a lil love but bards can be in the right hands and right builds one of the strongest assets to a party in game.

Saying that, I agree with you are spell list needs work and is lacking and we need a lot more there to make SS more attractive.

If built right though a SS can be a viable secondary dps option the double tr I am in middle of on main will be able to melee/cc/heal decent strength(28-34, 28 standing) 450+ hp and 42 char standing(no yugo, ship buffs, or store pots). Not a great dps but will hold his own.(any lil bit helps)

I am not talking about major stuff, but more like

Warchanter - Some type of personal damage bonus in the +2-+4 range
Spellsinger - Either more spells added or some type of spell like ability
Virtuoso - More in combat songs that they can use besides fascinate or after fascinate

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

But I have seen many threads on this bard forum where good players are actually debating whether or not to spend the 6 action points on Inspired Attack III.

The reason I started this thread is to start a discussion about what could be done to spruce up the bard class so that we dont feel like we're forced to take 6 bard levels for +1/+1, or to sing our songs and go afk, as Einer Mal mentioned.

Do we have to be gimped just because we want to stay pure?

Great thread. Daym there is so much to talk about, but I'll just throw a few things out there.

#1: Inspired Attack III. I was one of those veterans that used to recommend skipping Inspired Attack III. Back when the Shroud was considered the end game, the player base was a much more streamlined group. I saw very little benefit between II and III.

Its a whole different game now. Much more high level content, combined with the sea of newer players, necessitates the need for inspired attack III. There is no doubt about it, if you are a bard, you should invest in the entire Inspire Attack line (and of course the entire Inspire Damage line as well).

#2: Piking. I've never had an issue with this. Even my spell singer is never jobless. I'm in constant motion, healing, curing, CCing. I will go through any resources necessary to help my party to victory. There is a real big monkey on the backs of EVERY spell singer and virtuoso, regardless of skill, and that's this preconceived notion that if you aren't a war chanter you are useless. And you know what, I think thats justified in some cases. Why?

Because Turbine has spent SO LITTLE TIME on the bard class, in relation to every other class.

Warchanters benefit from the outstanding melee system that is the DDO backbone. But spellsingers & virtuosos were left in the blind. We just got a small percentage of caster spells that were already in the game. SO MANY actual D&D bard spells have never been incorporated into the game. I alluded to it in another thread, but I'll attach it here a well, because I think it would truly bring excitement back to the class and strengthen the pure bard class and allow the high cha bard to truly shine, including spell singers & virtuosos.

My wish list:

SPELLS! (that would breathe life back into spellsingers & virtuosos) Such as:

Clarity - This spell removes the effects of daze, sleep, confusion, stun, and charm, and protects against all mind-affecting effects until it expires. For every effect removed by the spell, the target creature sustains 1 point of negative energy damage.

Keen edge - Adds the keen property to the targeted slashing melee weapon, increasing its critical threat range.

Improved invisibility - The target creature becomes invisible and impossible to detect using normal vision. After attacking or casting spells the target creature will become partially visible and detectable by enemies, but still retain a 50% cover bonus.

Gust of wind - This spell creates a blast of air that knocks down any creatures failing their saving throws. It is also powerful enough to disperse any cloudlike area of effect spells (such as cloudkill) that are in the path of the wind gust.

Greater magic weapon - You empower the touched weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus per 3 caster levels (maximum of +5). You can either directly target the weapon you want to cast this spell on, or you can target a creature, affecting the creature's main hand weapon.

Cloud of bewilderment - The caster blows forth a cloud of noxious air. Enemies in the area of effect are stunned and blinded for 1d6 rounds.

Dirge - The caster's song draws the energies of death and destruction. Any enemies in the area of effect suffer 2 points of strength and dexterity ability score damage each round. If the enemy leaves the area of effect, their dexterity and strength are restored.

Invisibility sphere - The caster brings into being a zone of invisibility that travels with him for the duration of the spell. All allies within the spell's area of effect are rendered invisible, but not to each other. Those that leave the sphere are visible once more.

Wounding whispers - The caster is surrounded with whispers that injure any creature that hits the caster for 1d6+1/level points of sonic damage.

Ethereal visage - The caster is surrounded by a ghostly nimbus of light that grants damage reduction 20/+3, prevents all spells of level 2 or lower from affecting the caster and provides a 25% concealment bonus.

Energy buffer - The caster gains damage resistance 40/- against all elemental forms of damage. The spell ends after absorbing 60 points of damage from any single elemental type. This spell stacks with — and is applied after — feat-based sources of damage resistance.

Healing circle - All friendly creatures within the area of effect are healed for 1d8 hit points, +1 points per caster level up to a maximum of +20. Healing spells have a reverse effect when used on undead, harming instead of healing them.

Tasha's hideous laughter - If the target fails their saving throw they will begin laughing hysterically. They will be unable to defend themselves until the spell wears off. A creature whose racial type is different from the caster's gains a +4 bonus on its saving throw because humor doesn't 'translate' well.

[Bilger]

I am not talking about major stuff, but more like

Warchanter - Some type of personal damage bonus in the +2-+4 range
Spellsinger - Either more spells added or some type of spell like ability
Virtuoso - More in combat songs that they can use besides fascinate or after fascinate

Ahh in post quoted in my previous post ya mentioned spells only and was replying to that can repost quote if want.

I do agree though they do need a boost in the minor areas and in some major areas to.

[EinarMal]

Ahh in post quoted in my previous post ya mentioned spells only and was replying to that can repost quote if want.

I do agree though they do need a boost in the minor areas and in some major areas to.

Yeah I am a bit all over the place. But, spell choice is definitely a big one. It is pretty sad when you still have master's touch in your spell list with fighter levels because you took them later and there is literally nothing worth switching to.

[Bilger]

#1: Inspired Attack III. I was one of those veterans that used to recommend skipping Inspired Attack III. Back when the Shroud was considered the end game, the playerbase was a much more streamlined group. I saw very little benefit between II and III.

This is just my OP and +1 to hit is not worth 6 ap where I can use that to improve other areas more that is just my OP but if have the extra AP which I seem to never have enough then go for it that +1 to hit even in epic I never seem to notice but thats just me I geuss.

+1 to hit is nice don't get me wrong if had the AP to spare would take but with all the other enhancements I need I just don't see the need to waste 6 AP.

I geuss I am one of those vets who say isn't needed but thats just me and what I prefer.

This is off topic though just wanted to state my op back on subject

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This is just my OP and +1 to hit is not worth 6 ap where I can use that to improve other areas more that is just my OP but if have the extra AP which I seem to never have enough then go for it that +1 to hit even in epic I never seem to notice but thats just me I geuss.

This is off topic though just wanted to state my op back on subject

Fair enough, when 6 AP are involved thats always up to opinion! That cost was naturally my beef with it as well. However there are many newer players with sub-optimal gear and stat points in their to-hit stat. That extra +1 can be huge to such folk, literally mean the difference between not hitting and several hundred points of damage in a split second.

What do you think about adding more spells beneficial to the bard class, in relation to your main goal of this thread?

[geezee]

This is just my OP and +1 to hit is not worth 6 ap where I can use that to improve other areas more that is just my OP but if have the extra AP which I seem to never have enough then go for it that +1 to hit even in epic I never seem to notice but thats just me I geuss.

+1 to hit is nice don't get me wrong if had the AP to spare would take but with all the other enhancements I need I just don't see the need to waste 6 AP.

I geuss I am one of those vets who say isn't needed but thats just me and what I prefer.

This is off topic though just wanted to state my op back on subject

Even though I always take Inspired Attack III, I understand why you don't. My point is that if you have a valid reason not to take it for 6 AP, then that's a very good argument not to take 6 bard levels to get another +1/+1. And it's a shame that our class has come down to this.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

is that you would have been better if you did something else. No offense to the Classic Rocker Build, and other Bards who have remained pure. But given the current system, these bards have to give up an aweful lot not to multiclass.

Your OP is important, but this opinion here I disagree with. There are plenty of pure bards that can fill the roll of healer and/or DPS and still offer their unique DPS advantage to other party members.

I still LOVE running Mississippee because I STILL get told that because Im a spellinger and pure, that I'm just a buff bot. I have very little trouble finding a party, but thats because people know me from the forums. I literally feed off of their doubts and fixed opinions. For many spellsingers and virtuosos, this problem can overwhelm them and its not fair at all.

Its all in the skill of the player. Ive seen bards simply outclass the traditional healing classes on multiple occasions. Ive seen them solo heal a Shroud (I've done it, I know handfuls of others off the top of my head that have also done it). I know many more that can simply take a healers spot in a raid and do very well.

What I'm saying is you need to be careful not to diminish the benefits of a pure bard. With a good build, good gear, and advanced player skill, pure bards are a huge benefit to their party.

This pre-conceived notion problem needs to be fixed, but its going to take the Turbine devs to fix it.

[Laggin]

Been playing a bard since the second day. I tried all three prestige classes and didn't like any of them.

Now I am just a bard, max cc and max buffs. Works just fine. To many negatives for the few positives for each prestige class.

Just because your a bard, doesn't mean you have to be a spellsinger/warchanter/virtuoso.

Those that run with Fred know, nothing goes wrong when your with Fred.

[Darkrok]

Been playing a bard since the second day. I tried all three prestige classes and didn't like any of them.

Now I am just a bard, max cc and max buffs. Works just fine. To many negatives for the few positives for each prestige class.

Just because your a bard, doesn't mean you have to be a spellsinger/warchanter/virtuoso.

Those that run with Fred know, nothing goes wrong when your with Fred.

I can't see why you wouldn't take one of them, but I'd have to see which feats you chose to make that call. Spellsinger seems fairly cheap on a general purpose bard in that Maximize is a great feat for healing, Energy of Music II for the sp's is reasonably cheap and useful, Song Magic II and Lyric of Song I are nice for healing as well...basically all you're 'wasting' would be Bard Concentration II (3 AP's). For a +2 to concentration and UMD, +100 sp's, and a song for +1 DC's and 10% sp reduction...that would be hard for me to NOT fit in. I'll grant that warchanter's a bit more costly and virtuoso more specialized but Spellsinger seems easy enough to fit in for a general bard.

[gwenniez]

What would you take otherwise for the 6 ap.. it's not that the bard ap enh are that great. The only thing the
ap enh brings are the racial traits for the rest our whole ap tree is to be of service to others.

Lets do a recap :

4 ranks into lingering song 10 points

4 ranks bard healing magic 10 points

3 ranks atk 12 points

3 ranks damage 6 points

2 ranks extra song (warchanter pre req or other useless junk like conc or perform ) ( 3 points

bravery (useless) 3 points

energy of music 1 or 2 ranks 1~3 points

prestige 4 points

and all this is just to make others look betters there's hardly anything in the whole ap tree that actually
makes you look better. that's 49 points into looking others look better. Sure you benefit from the songs
yourself too but others get to eat there cake and have yours also..

Bards need something that's just for them,something like focusing chant but not level 1 something that benefit just us.

Make the capstone so that a bard is more suceptible to music and benefit more from his own music. It's only natural a trained ear hears music better then a non trained fighter/clerics insert random class ear. How can you be a musical prodigy at level 20 and still experience music the same way as joe average ?

This will also welcome more bards into a party. If one bards greatly increases the other bard performance by just playing songs thats only understandable for other bards ears.

[Bilger]

What would you take otherwise for the 6 ap.. it's not that the bard ap enh are that great. The only thing the
ap enh brings are the racial traits for the rest our whole ap tree is to be of service to others.

Lets do a recap :

4 ranks into lingering song 10 points

4 ranks bard healing magic 10 points

3 ranks atk 12 points

3 ranks damage 6 points

2 ranks extra song (warchanter pre req or other useless junk like conc or perform ) ( 3 points

bravery (useless) 3 points

energy of music 1 or 2 ranks 1~3 points

prestige 4 points

and all this is just to make others look betters there's hardly anything in the whole ap tree that actually
makes you look better. that's 49 points into looking others look better. Sure you benefit from the songs
yourself too but others get to eat there cake and have yours also..

Bards need something that's just for them,something like focusing chant but not level 1 something that benefit just us.

Make the capstone so that a bard is more suceptible to music and benefit more from his own music. It's only natural a trained ear hears music better then a non trained fighter/clerics insert random class ear. How can you be a musical prodigy at level 20 and still experience music the same way as joe average ?

This will also welcome more bards into a party. If one bards greatly increases the other bard performance by just playing songs thats only understandable for other bards ears.

That is a basic WC now if you multiclass and want better healing and crits and such thats more ap if rogue thats more ap if barb thats more ap elsewhere. Can keep going it is the build and where you feel betters the character.

Fully spec out a 20 heal/cc bard with all enhancements for healing and such and tell me ya have those 6 ap lying around. You don't. If want the basic make party happy build add that +1 attack and lose elsewhere to me it is all in the build. If can afford go for it but when you are trying to get more out of a characters split or abilities 6 ap go along way.

The benifits of what you gain outweigh the benifits you get from +1 attack.

That is my OP though everyone has there playstyle and with mine +1 to attack just doesn't seem worth the 6 ap cost to others it may to me it don't.

[geezee]

Your OP is important, but this opinion here I disagree with. There are plenty of pure bards that can fill the roll of healer and/or DPS and still offer their unique DPS advantage to other party members.

I still LOVE running Mississippee because I STILL get told that because Im a spellinger and pure, that I'm just a buff bot. I have very little trouble finding a party, but thats because people know me from the forums. I literally feed off of their doubts and fixed opinions. For many spellsingers and virtuosos, this problem can overwhelm them and its not fair at all.

Its all in the skill of the player. Ive seen bards simply outclass the traditional healing classes on multiple occasions. Ive seen them solo heal a Shroud (I've done it, I know handfuls of others off the top of my head that have also done it). I know many more that can simply take a healers spot in a raid and do very well.

What I'm saying is you need to be careful not to diminish the benefits of a pure bard. With a good build, good gear, and advanced player skill, pure bards are a huge benefit to their party.

This pre-conceived notion problem needs to be fixed, but its going to take the Turbine devs to fix it.

I would argue that this has a lot more to do with you being a good player, as opposed to the strength of the build of your character. Likewise there are a lot of awesome level 20 bards who will continue to kick ass regardless who posts what on here and what the devs dont do. I'm only talking about the way the class is currently designed, even if the skill of some players more than makes up for the defiencies of the class design.

[Rav'n]

Just my opinion... but 6 AP for +1 is never worth it. 3 Capped Bards... and not one onf them I'd trade out 6 AP for a +1 to hit.

[Laggin]

I can't see why you wouldn't take one of them, but I'd have to see which feats you chose to make that call. Spellsinger seems fairly cheap on a general purpose bard in that Maximize is a great feat for healing, Energy of Music II for the sp's is reasonably cheap and useful, Song Magic II and Lyric of Song I are nice for healing as well...basically all you're 'wasting' would be Bard Concentration II (3 AP's). For a +2 to concentration and UMD, +100 sp's, and a song for +1 DC's and 10% sp reduction...that would be hard for me to NOT fit in. I'll grant that warchanter's a bit more costly and virtuoso more specialized but Spellsinger seems easy enough to fit in for a general bard.

Not a healing specced bard, human;
toughness
mental toughness
quicken
heighten
extend
spell, enchantment I and II
and spell pen I.
Think that's it, my dc is just as good as any caster. For enchantment spells.

At work, this is all from memory since haven't changed any feats for awhile. Why fix it if it ain't broken.

[geezee]

Just my opinion... but 6 AP for +1 is never worth it. 3 Capped Bards... and not one onf them I'd trade out 6 AP for a +1 to hit.

And no one on here is questioning your skill or your value as a bard. But if you ever party with me, you will get that +1 too (from my song). Because the way I play, that buff is the most fundamental and important part of my philosophy as a bard. And I will pay any price for that buff, even if it means I will be gimped in other areas.

Easy to see why not everyone plays like me. And why not everyone wants to go 20 bard.