Build options for a battle cleric - advice please

[Octavi]

Hi, I am building my first character and currently have a level 10 cleric/1 fighter. 32pt build Dwarf with 16 str/con/wis. I am currently really enjoying buffing up and running into melee (using falchion currently with thf), using rs for group heals and dropping back to primary heal when needed.

My current goal is to reach level 12 cleric for heal aura (picking up BB along the way). My issue is I am not sure what direction to go from there. Ideally I would love to have good melee ability and dps for max level raids and good suvivability with the utility of cleric heals/aura/buffs. Firstly is this realistically possible for max level raids and if so what build (based on what I already have) would best achieve this?

A couple of specific questions. I'm currently using a falchion and about to take Improved Crit. Is this a good weapon choice for thf (keen falchion with improved crit looks good . . . is it really)? What level cleric would I need to be for BB to be useful at max level?

[FlyingTurtle]

Falchion???!

Tree-hugging elf-lover! The dwarven clans disown ye! Get a real weapon ya nonce!



(just kidding)

Falchion's probably not optimal. Most dwarves prefer greataxes since the dwarven enhancements kick it up a notch (+2 to hit +4 damage). They have slightly less crit power (5% x3 vs 15% x2) but are more effective in autocrit scenarios. They crit less frequently though but I don't think that's an issue for a cleric.

Keen and IC:Slash don't stack.

You should post your feat plan, I'm interested in experienced players' feedback.

[Innara]

Greataxe is better if you're Dwarf like mentioned. You should definitely stick to that only.

And yes keen and IC don't stack. Don't we all wish it did.

As for the BB, it depends on a few things...where are you putting your level ups into? If it's not wis and you really want to focus on melee, then accept that the DCs will be low and with only 12 levels of cleric the damage will be as well. if you have feats like maximize then I'm told (on battle cleric build I was planning ) it can still be nice to throw one out and now and then. I believe BB maxes at level 15 or 17 (not really sure about that, so keep in mind what else you lose (maybe feats or ench from other multiclass) if you want to make BB more affective.

I'm also interested in your feat progressions, much also depends on how heaving geared you are towards melee etc. My next cleric likely will be my melee based too and as such it will always be nice to hear different ideas as to what will be useful.

[DToNE]

You can actually lose the two-handed-fighting feat as a Cleric using Falchions, Improved Critical is more than enough.

Keen weapons and Improved Crits do not stack, but having Improved Crits alone would give you excellent Banishing and Smiting capabilities later on. This will also allow for weakening falchion of enfeebling to do some serious STR damage to your opponent, which will allow for auto-crits after a few swings. If you have good DR, Bodyfeeder Falchions can also be a plausible choice of weaponry.

You'll do fine DPS with Power Attack (fighter feat) and improved crits. Just use your other feats on metamagics and feats you find useful. This way, you'll have a melee capable Cleric without really falling into the "battle cleric" category.

Minimum epic raid content really only requires 17 levels of Cleric, but I wouldn't recommend it if you're not all that familiar with raids and epic quests.

[biggin]

As far as end game raids/epics, you'll probably be severely behind the curve. BC's can be tough to play, especially for someone new to the game. As a BC you would either a) be taking the healer role, which can get extremely hairy if you are trying to be in the mix and heal or b) a DPS role, and unless you are very well geared would be passed on for higher DPS builds. You won't have a problem with normal raids (with good groups) because most players know you can complete with just about any 12 player set up. In a VOD/Hound I would take even an inexperienced BC over a melee. But the healing aura in no way keeps up with Epic damage and your CC would be just about worthless.

I've noticed a trend that the harder a quest, the more people want more focused builds. Maybe you are one of the few that are pick DDO up and run with it and luck out on loot pulls. For most there is a learning curve and it takes time to build a decent gear list. But as soon as you hit 20 you don't have to jump in Epics. You can level him up, start the wonderful 2 day 18 hour raid grind, and slowly work yourself up to it while you work on another toon.

[Propane]

I would drop two -weapon fighting as well ... IC and maybe Power Attack should be enough... to give you some DPS

At level 12 you should have 5 level feats and 1 bonus (fighter)

Feats...(highly recommended)

Quicken
Extend
Empower Healing (RS)
Toughness
Inproved Crit - Slashing
Power Attack

Feats to consider (got 2 more coming at 15 and 18)
Maximize
Spell pen
Spell focus
others....

[unbongwah]

And yes keen and IC don't stack. Don't we all wish it did.

Sidebar: they did in NWN 1, as did stat buffs, IIRC. Oh, how I enjoyed abusing the hell outta that back in the day...good times, good times.

OP: If you haven't planned a deeper multiclass build in advance, I would stick with cleric. It's too easy to gimp yourself if your build shifts direction abruptly in mid-game, IMHO. Besides, good healers are always welcome.

[Helsdot]

I'm a relatively new player with a Clr 9/1 Ftr. Welcome to the club :^)

Honestly in endgame I think you'll likely get more mileage out of spells than melee. I haven't been to endgame yet, but from what I've read, that seems to be the case. It seems there's more built in to the Cleric class for casting than melee. As a Cleric you don't get the combat feats of a Fighter (or the reflex saves), and can struggle to keep up your Strength. Unless you plan for a full-on melee Cleric from the start, it seems that the best you can do is melee-capable. That said, it seems another breakpoint in Clerics is save or die spells vs DD and AoE spells. Unless you have a high DC and Wisdom, your save-or-dies won't often penetrate, so you'll be relegated to lighter spells. I think the balance is to pay attention to your melee capability so you're able to survive in melee while being careful not to gimp your spell DCs. I'd recommend checking out Sirgog's Cleric build catalogue, I've found it pretty helpful:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=223253

In the meantime, I'd recommend you go for THF over TWF. As far as I can tell, TWF requires a lot of feats to really take off and strongly favors high Dex classes, which Clerics really kinda aren't. Out of every other stat, Dex is probably the most popular dump stat for Clerics. A good 2-hander though, with a decent base Strength, some cherry-picked feats (like Power Attack and Imp Critical), along with Divine Power can cause a Cleric to perform about as well as a Fighter of the same level. It takes much less infrastructure to prop yourself up for THF over TWF.

I'm not sure if you're F2P or P2P, but I'd really recommend you buy the Delera's Crypt quest pack. There are some fantastic items you can get from the end rewards. My first time through I picked up Carnifex, a two-handed axe with a very nice crit range. My normal hits when sword-and-boarding were about 11 to 15, up to about 20ish on a crit. Carnifex though, holy crow, with that I was hitting for about 20ish+ and my crits were clocking in around 65 to 85. I was also critting about one out of every 4 to 6 hits with Carnifex, and only crit maybe one out of every 8 to 15 hits with my one-hander (plus 2-hand axes have that awesome cleave swing that hits everything in a 120-degree frontal arc).

[Postumus]

I'm also working on a dwarven Clr/Ftr.

Right now he's 1/3 Clr/Ftr

STR 20
INT 8
WIS 14
DEX can't remember off hand
CON 23
CHA can't recall

HP 113
SP 140

Is getting the armor agility feats worthwhile? He's got full plate and the negative modifiers are brutal, but they don't seem to adversely affect him in combat.

I can double up with the FTR and DWF feats, but will this help me much overall? Or should I spend my action points on other feats?

[Octavi]

{Falchion's probably not optimal. Most dwarves prefer greataxes since the dwarven enhancements kick it up a notch (+2 to hit +4 damage). They have slightly less crit power (5% x3 vs 15% x2) but are more effective in autocrit scenarios. They crit less frequently though but I don't think that's an issue for a cleric.}

If I read it correctly Imp Crit doubles the threat range so falchion would have 30%x2 vs 10%x3. Even without the + to hit and dam that dwarves get with axes is the extra 20% critting not worth it?

{You should post your feat plan, I'm interested in experienced players' feedback. }

Current feats are:
Emp healing spell
Extend
THF
ITHF
Power attack

The other 2 I currently plan on are toughness (haven't really needed it so far with dwarven bonuses) and Imp Crit (when I take another figher level). I really enjoy the glancing blows currently and find they help soften up the mobs for aoe etc. . . will this remain useful at higher levels?

Stat level ups have all been in STR. Current stats with gear (no tomes used):
STR:22
DEX:10
CON:21
INT:8
WIS:16
CHA:12

The reason I'm asking for advice as other than being usefull at melee I havn't really decided on a final level 20 build.

Lets assume that I just want to be the best possible melee with a minimum cleric level of 12, what would you suggest feats/stats/weapons/class (I have no problems at further multiclassing if there is good reason - I don't have monk)?

Second option, cleric 17 for mass heals, what build classes/stats/feats/weapons would give good melee without gimping heals. I'm not overly worried about offensive casting but a useful BB woul be nice if possible.

[bogart99]

I have 2 questions.
why bother putting anything in dex if your going 2h your reflex save is going to suck anyway as a cleric and your not going to have ac worth a dam so save 2 points?

if your pumping str could you get stunning blow to work instead of taking imp crit?



A build I have been thinking of is
3 pally/17 cleric

Race dwarf

16 str +2 supreme stat tome points go into level ups
8 dex +2 supreme stat tome
16 con +2 supreme stat tome
8 int +2 supreme stat tome
16 wis +2 supreme stat tome
14 cha +2 supreme stat tome

feats
toughness
pa
stuning blow
emp healing
mt
max


skills
balance
consintration.

[richieelias27]

Falchions are awesome ....

... If you're a WF Kensai/Berzerker


Otherwise, stick to axes as a Dwarven Battlecleric

[Chai]

I'd prob stick with great ax on a dwarf however...

At ~ +50 damage, falchion starts to take over as a better dps weapon on crit-able mobs.

[FlyingTurtle]

If I read it correctly Imp Crit doubles the threat range so falchion would have 30%x2 vs 10%x3. Even without the + to hit and dam that dwarves get with axes is the extra 20% critting not worth it?

Axes are affected by Imp Crit too. So the difference stays at 9% of crit-multiplied damage, only on unfortified enemies. Whereas the axe will get a flat +4 on everything. I find it hard to believe that at level 10 you're doing over 40 damage, base, per hit on average in terms of multipliable damage. Not to mention at early levels you have a non-negligible miss chance and the +2 to hit really helps.

It's quite close and you don't need to spec for it (except spending 6 points on enhancements), so it doesn't really matter if you love the look of falchions, just grab whatever looks good and swing away.

[TFPAQ]

If you search the threads you will find a couple of great ones on building BCs. However, "Battle Cleric" doesn't mean "melee". You have both melee and off. casting types.

Caster BCs are superior thorough approx lvl 12-14. Once you move on to the Vale (Shroud) etc you start to run into MOBs that either have evasion (to BB essentially) or various immunities or significant SR to overcome. This becomes especially true on Elite. On Epic, melee-type gets the nod because you simply don't have any spells offensively that you will land with any consistency.

I have two BCs. The first is my melee-focused Dwarf: Cleric17/Monk2/Fighter1. He has STR 30 WIS 30 approximately 500 hp and about 1600 sp. TWF a slew of dwarven axes. His standing AC (self-buffed) is 41. With quicken on and mass heal, etc he can stand in the front and do excellent dps while keeping up the primary fighters (notice I didn't call him a primary fighter). He does very well through all of the elite and epic content.

My second is a halfling dex-based Cleric17/Monk2/Sorc1. Self-buffed AC mid 60s (I'm at work but I think he hits 66 or 67 with the shield spell on). About 380 hp and around the same 1600 sp (maybe a little higher) with WIS 34 (I think) in water stance. He owned all the quests and soloed well through Amrath as an offensive caster, etc. In some elite raids and in epics, he runs around, heals, buffs, and keeps people from dying. Forget about any "Battle" in the name.

My point is that you are looking at undertaking one of the toughest multi-classing challenges in the game without much experience. It can be a tough road.

I'm planning on taking the dex-based halfling to Cleric13/Monk6/Sorc1 for some better offense on the melee side. The only thing that really takes a hit is a small drop on the BB DC and the loss of mass heal, but I do gain som AC benefits as well, etc.

[Octavi]

Thanks for all the suggestions, it has helped me sort out the direction I think I want to go. 17 cleric definately for mass heals etc. My question would be what to do with the last 2 levels (already having fighter 1) for the best effectiveness? Is there any point in having another 2 fighter levels for 17 cleric/3 fighter? 18/2? 19/1?

Considerng I will never be the primary DPS in high level content, would a falchion with GTHF make sese for the crit effects (+glancing blow crit effects) as opposed to just trying to do the max dps possible? If so what would you suggest as the best crit effects to use?

[FlyingTurtle]

Thanks for all the suggestions, it has helped me sort out the direction I think I want to go. 17 cleric definately for mass heals etc. My question would be what to do with the last 2 levels (already having fighter 1) for the best effectiveness? Is there any point in having another 2 fighter levels for 17 cleric/3 fighter? 18/2? 19/1?

It depends on your final feat lineup. The third fighter level doesn't get you a bonus feat so you'll have to take monk if you want to keep getting extra feats.

The fighter levels can help give you metamagic feats which improve your flexibility in spellcasting, for a cost in caster levels and SP. Check my "feat blocks" thread for some suggestions:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=270986

You'll want Quicken and Maximize, for sure at least.

[Stitch78]

Greataxe is better if you're Dwarf like mentioned. You should definitely stick to that only.

^^ Not this (necessarily). You have to invest 6AP to get the +4 to damage and even more to get +to-hit. That's a big investment for a cleric (Unyielding Sovereignty anyone?).

The crit range on the falchion is superior by a good amount, especially with improved crit.

Falchions with good enhancements are invariably cheaper in the AH, because barbs, pallys and THF fighters usually go after great axes.

The downsides are discussed above, but don't ditch the falcion unless you are sure it makes sense.

[der_kluge]

If you want to make a battle cleric, delete it, and start a Paladin.

IMHO, your caster level won't be high enough to overcome spell resistance at the highest levels, and you will suck at melee, since clerics aren't great at combat.

[Octavi]

If you want to make a battle cleric, delete it, and start a Paladin.

I have not asked how to build a pally. If I wanted to build a pally I would have done so and posted this request on the pally board. I have asked for options on how to make an effective battle cleric. If you cant make a constructive comment why bother post? If you want to make a pally is better than cleric thread why not start your own?