Worst of the Worst Spells

[Autolycus]

The enemies we fight in DDO all have inflated HD. In a PnP campaign, you never go into a dungeon on "hard" or "elite".

It seems to me that every spell with an HD limit should be examined, and either the HD limit raised or removed, or at least be modifiable with empower and maximize. (and maybe potency!)

I think almost every spell should be reexamined, not just the ones with HD limits. Not only have monster HPs been boosted, but their saves as well. So spells with no HD limit are still impacted by the mobs boosted saves, stats, etc..

IMO, this is a symptom of the larger problem of power creep/inflation/mistakes or whatever you want to call it. There is something of a balance in PnP between weapons/spells/monsters. It isn't perfect, but what is. When you introduce crafting, greensteel, Khopesh implementation, and other inflation into the game, you then have to boost the mobs HPs, saves, etc., which in turn breaks spells based on HDs, etc. so you have to boost them. When one area gets boosted or nerfed, it affects everything else. It's all a balancing act, and ideally gets done simultaneously.

[Angelus_dead]

I don't really see changes to things like fort or wounding for example being effected, since the HD is part of the hitpoint calculation in addition to constitution, not it's base.

The hitpoint equivalence of one hit of Wounding is equal to half the HD of the creature. Reducing HD but boosting hp would make Wounding less useful.

HD is also fed into many calculations for other stats.

[Chaosprism]

The summon X spells I think are being looked at, and although the augment summons feat is there. I think the spells need to be usable WITHOUT feats and amplifications.

If you DO have the feat sure, you're cooking with gas.


It's the same comment I made about cloud durations, they need to be USABLE the level you first get them.

So even a level 1 character casting obscuring mist it needs to last long enough to be usable, the length of the fights is probably longer for lower level characters anyway.

Durations for most spells, even buffs should be of the form:

USABLE MINIMUM TIME + very small increment per caster level.
(like 15 seconds + 1 second per caster level)
Now that persistant spells wink out when their caster dies , durations shouldnt be a problem for displays.

That way you find a scroll of X it'll work. ALso scrolls need to have a functional caster level of 5 or 10 (which is indepedant of the level of the user) with scrolls the power is meant to be in the scroll , not in the user.
It shouldnt be harder to read a fireball scroll that's caster level 5 or a fireball scroll thats caster level 10. The power is IN the scroll, if you can read the fireball spell off the scroll (say as a level 5 wizard) you can operate both.

[Asirin]

Undeath to Death
1 out of 5 (on both counts.)

I can understand the reasoning behind not wanting to make this spell TOO effective but seriously....

I had high hopes for this spell and have tried to force it to be useful.

Nope.

[Therilith]

With sufficiently slow regen (perhaps requiring no casting for it to work), it would still be a factor, at least on a per-encounter basis.

"on a per-encounter basis" is already how it works in every other MMO.

I like the sound of the Archmage stuff, but it does not help a sorceror or (probably) as Pale Master.

Yeah, I meant that every (primary) casting class would be given a similar ability. I don't like it, but I'd still prefer it to regenerating SP.

I am not convinced that SP regen is a good idea, but I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand.

Not saying it couldn't possibly improve the game, just that it would be removing one of my favorite aspects of it.

SP will be infinite, but slow to regen, which to me seems better than 'out of mana' => 'chug a pot'.

I don't think SP potions should have been added in the first place, but it's far too late to do anything about that now.

- timers on mana pots

Yes.

I think you misunderstood my question: why not allow the "Slow" spell to work (but not stack) - -50% movement, -30% attack speed does not seem to be in the same category as 'insta-kill' spells.

It would still reduce the boss' melee damage output by 30%. That's a lot for a single spell. They'd also have to allow every debuff weaker than or equal to slow.

[Angelus_dead]

I don't think SP potions should have been added in the first place, but it's far too late to do anything about that now.

It's not too late to limit Mnemonic Enhancer potions to one per 5 minutes, or even one per shrine...

[megathon]

I didn't read through the entire post but did someone mention "Spawn Screen"? This is one spell I don't see a use for at all.

[Xorm]

Word of recall -1 useless ... make it go to our ship! please?

Spawn screen - 1

Merfolks blessing - 1

and I agree with everyone else about the power word, glyphs etc.. etc.. and the comment about the sup power VII ..

greater shout - 1

electricity spells - 1

mord. disjunction - 1

Ranger Summon spells - 1

Lack of Ranger Spells -1

[Autolycus]

Word of recall -1 useless ... make it go to our ship! please?

How about making Word of Recall go to a list of selectable locations similar to teleport? Maybe make it go to temples, "holy sites", or some other appropriate location in different areas. It's a Sixth level spell for crying out loud.

[andbr22]

Ok i didn't read whole topic so my ideas can double other ideas:
- Sleep - work on single target regaldless of HD.
- Deep slumber - Work on enemies in AoE.
- Ghoul touch - work on all living creatures.
- Power word kill - Kills 1 enemy regaldless of HP. No need to save (don't work on bosses). OR Save or masive (500-1000 untyped) damage when save will work.
- Every power word could work on single target regaldless HP.
- Bigger khyber shards for even better Trap of soul (40-50 DC?)

Add Acid / Lighting dmg dealing spells that deal nice dmg, and don't require save (epsecially reflex save).

[megathon]

Ok i didn't read whole topic so my ideas can double other ideas:
Add Acid / Lighting dmg dealing spells that deal nice dmg, and don't require save (epsecially reflex save).

A Reflex save means that you managed to dodge some if not all of the acid/lightning attack.

[andbr22]

Well duh...
I am just stateing that 99% of arcanes go into linage of elements (fire+ice) coz they have spells that do decend dmg, and thoes spells don't have saves (polar ray anyone?).
For linage of energy (acid and electr) we have one electric spell that don't have save (electric touch lv1, max 5d6 dmg, very close range (anyone?)), and few acid spells with terribad dmg coz big part of enemies close endgame have at least some acid resistance and the dmg are over time so resistance work per tick (melf arrow, acid rain, cloudkill (proof against poison make immune), burning blood (+fire DoT)).
Now with improved icestorm spell in U7 (Great Dmg over time) even when they make 6 speparate linages casters will still stick with Ice and fire, because there is nothing interesting in lighting and acid lineages.

[Sarezar]

The problem with dispel is that it is being spammed. Spam spam spam spam spam is all they do. If you can't hide, it is guaranteed that your buffs will be dispelled again before you finish recasting them.

I'm not sure I agree with AD's suggestion with the suppression of buffs. That's something that Beholders' anti-magic field should be doing (and the technology to achieve this is in the game i.e. Disjunction). Dispel though works as it's supposed to so I'd prefer if there was a much longer timer for that spell when cast by enemies (create a new "dispel" spell that only monsters have, if that's the only way to increase its timer without affecting our version).

[Angelus_dead]

The problem with dispel is that it is being spammed. Spam spam spam spam spam is all they do. If you can't hide, it is guaranteed that your buffs will be dispelled again before you finish recasting them.

That's an impression caused by the relative numbers of monsters compared to players, the unobtrusive graphics, and the lopsided caster level.

I'm not sure I agree with AD's suggestion with the suppression of buffs.

Yes, that's something difficult to judge without playtesting.

[TheDearLeader]

Trap the Soul:
-Spell Cost: 4 (spell points), 1 (physical cost)
-Spell Effectiveness: 2
-Comments: Not enough need for it, and the components take too long to gather. Not to mention the HD limit. Take off the HD limit, and make khyber shards drop more? Would be set.

I have to play Devil's Advocate here. Trap the Soul is fan ----ing tastic. It is an insta-death spell with a high DC even without Heighten. It is a Will-based save, meaning that all those "heavy hitter" mobs that would normally make every Fort Save but a 1 are effected. It affects more mobs in the game, because it bypasses Death Ward. There is no other spell like it in the game.

Also, Tiny Khyber Dragonshards can be purchased in either the Portable Hole, or a vendor in Amrath. You can crunch them into the Smalls/Averages. Collection of material components is not necessary, as they can be purchased.

It is, however, costly to cast using this method, I will admit. 20 HD is 500 plat a cast, 30 HD is 1,250 plat a cast. I wouldn't mind if the Vendor price of the Tiny shards decided to oh, say, slash that in half, or even 30%.

I do agree that I *would* like to have a higher HD limit. I'd like to start trapping the Souls of Epic Mobs based off my spell. However, 30 HD hits a lot of things - Orthons in ToD, for example, as I've stated once or twice in these forums. So you won't find many non-epic mobs that can't be hit by the highest version of this spell.

[Sarezar]

That's an impression caused by the relative numbers of monsters compared to players, the unobtrusive graphics, and the lopsided caster level.

And the frequency in which they cast dispel

[BossOfEarth]

Level 1
Good spell selection and interesting choices at all levels.

Camouflage
5/5 cost (Lasts forever, casts quickly)
1/5 effectiveness (Useless)
Awesomely thematic but not working as intended. The Camouflage +10 hide bonus should help a ranger move undetected but does not overcome the real difficulties in sneaking: listening, blindsense and the inability to 'disappear' after being spotted.
Griefing: Camouflage is seen as griefing because it is ugly, blamed for graphics card crashes, and is useless.

Jump
5/5 cost (Good duration, casts quickly)
4/5 effectiveness (One of the best reasons to play a Ranger)
A very good spell that levels up nicely until it is eclipsed by Favored Soul wings. The cooldown is short enough to be useful in play.

Longstrider
3/5 cost (Duration at low levels is too limited and excessive at high levels)
2/5 effectiveness (Better than nothing)
Since it doesn't stack it's only useful if you miss a haste. This should stack with the Ranger running enhancements.

Merfolk's Blessing
5/5 cost (Usually covers an entire party for one swim)
2/5 effectiveness (A cute spell that always gets a laugh)
There is not much swimming (yet) so there's not much use for this spell. The main use is that swimming is kinda dull so it's nice to speed up the swims. Low STR no Swim skill Clerics appreciate not having to strip naked in Tempest Spine.

Ram's Might
5/5 cost (a nice cast and forget spell)
4/5 effectiveness (a welcome DPS boost but underwhelming at high levels)
Best ranger spell ever, but it's doesn't improve with caster level and everyone who splashes Ranger for the two weapon fighting gets it. Ram's Might is an incentive to multiclass Ranger and a disincentive to play pure Ranger.

Resist Energy
2/5 cost (too time consuming to cast)
4/5 effectiveness (everyone else casts it anyway)
Since the other casters spam this on everyone, it's not really that effective to have it. It would be fun to pass out as a party buff but ranger cooldown takes too long.

Summon Nature's Ally I (gray wolf)
2/5 cost (Wolf gets lost, goes AWOL etc...)
3/5 effectiveness (Tripping is useful)
At level, this is the best summon the Rangers get. The wolf can survive a bit of combat and trip mobs.

Tumble
3/5 cost (Duration is ok)
1/5 effectiveness (Tumble is not that great)
A functioning spell, but the Tumble skill is underfeatured. No noticeable effect unless you are wearing armor with an armor check greater than your DEX plus 1 skill rank.

Ranger 2
Barkskin
4/5 (Cooldown is too long, and serves only to lengthen the pre-quest buffing phase)
5/5 (An exclusive ranger spell that gives an exclusive AC boost)
Great spell!

Bear's Endurance
5/5
1/5 (who cares?)
Never used it. There are no CON runes or levers.

Camouflage Mass
1/5 (stains last forever)
1/5 (griefing is not cool)
Serves no purpose aside from griefing and sarcastically to protesting the lack of cool level 2 Ranger spells.

Cat's Grace
5/5
3/5 (DEX rune)
Handy if you need a Dex rune.

Cure Light Wounds
1/5 (*)
5/5 (Wands)
* I haven't used CLW for healing since I live in fear of disconnecting and losing all my buffs. But the awesomesauce that is MOD7 fixes that so I imagine I'd use CLW if I could count on getting a full duration from my buffs.

Hold Animal
5/5 (Congradulations on reballancing Hold)
2/5 (Needs more bears)
There are precious few animals that are dangerous enough to merit special tactics, and the distinction between vermin, magical animals, things that look animalish (like rust monsters) makes it not worth the hastle. Additionally, there aren't enough good enchantment spells to make specializing a Ranger caster worthwhile, AND rangers already get feat clickies to charm animals. This spell is a fifth wheel.

Owl's Wisdom
5/5
4/5 (Wis is a casting stat and a dump stat for Rangers)
Great for access to wands before WIS items are affordable.

Protection from Energy
4/5
5/5
Swell but I get it for free when I gather for buffs.

Snare
1/5
1/5
Thematically awesome but currently useless.

Spike Growth
1/5
1/5
Cool animation but currently useless.

Summon Nature's Ally II
1/5
1/5
Have not used it since the rebalanced. Might be cool but I suspect not.

Level 3
Cure Moderate Wounds
1/5 (Costs too much mana)
5/5 (Wands)
Occasionally, I'll cast this in combat to avoid taking the time to swap out my weapon for a wand for a weapon.

Neutralize Poison
5/5
5/5
This spell is well implemented. The costs of casting v.s. wearing an item are nicely balanced.

Remove Disease
5/5
5/5
This spell is well implemented although less effective than neutralize poison because it only works AFTER being affected by a disease. The effects of disease are not cured, so some Cleric aftercare is usually needed. This is kinda a hastle but also makes for more interesting and engaging game play.


Summon Nature's Ally III (lioness)
I hate casting this because it's so sad to see my lioness die. I know the summons have been buffed but perhaps there's a less tragic way to get rid of a HP-less lioness? Please?

Wild Instincts5/5
5/5
Works as intended but not sexy.

Ranger 4

Cure Serious Wounds
2/5 cost (Mana expensive)
3/5 effectiveness (Wands)
It's nice to have healing on a melee without UMD. I sometimes cast it in combat to avoid the hastle of switching to wand.

Freedom of Movement
5/5 cost
5/5 effectiveness
A great spell that's difficult to get through other means. This is the best reason to be Ranger 16.

Longstrider, Mass
5/5 (Nice to have Mass)
1/5 (No one needs +15% to running speed)
I stopped using it because no one cares but I sometimes cast the single version on myself to free up a boot/ring slot.

Summon Nature's Ally IV young razor cat
I was really disappointed by the razor cat. They seemed to have a lot of DR when I fought them in Ataraxia but my summoned one died in no time flat.

**Summary**
Rangers have six good spells: Ram's Might, Barkskin, Freedom of Movement and the three cure spells.

Most Ranger spells cover weaknesses such as a lack of gear or lack of casters but offer no real strengths to a party. Rangers have a fun assortment of spells that act as skill boosts to Hide, Jump, Swim, Tumble, Listen and Spot. Rangers have spells that can make up for a lack of proper gear such as Remove Poison, Remove Disease, a moderate runspeed boost, elemental resistances and bonuses to Con, Dex, Str and Wis. Rangers can also heal, but are not effective healers. At least, my rangers are not. I've heard of some Rangers gearing up for self healing.

Four Ranger spells are so poorly executed they tarnish the reputation of Turbine and foster ill will towards the developers. Snare, Spike Growth, Camouflage and Mass Camouflage. These spells are disgraceful. Fortunately the level Three and Four spell lists are free of any such defective spells.

[Chaosprism]

Camouflage
5/5 cost (Lasts forever, casts quickly)
1/5 effectiveness (Useless)
Awesomely thematic but not working as intended. The Camouflage +10 hide bonus should help a ranger move undetected but does not overcome the real difficulties in sneaking: listening, blindsense and the inability to 'disappear' after being spotted.
Griefing: Camouflage is seen as griefing because it is ugly, blamed for graphics card crashes, and is useless.

Camouflage Mass
1/5 (stains last forever)
1/5 (griefing is not cool)
Serves no purpose aside from griefing and sarcastically to protesting the lack of cool level 2 Ranger spells.

As I posted above it should additional reduce the detection radius of mobs as IF you were hiding (but you get to move at non-sneak speed) also maybe let people remove the spell from themselves somehow if it's unwanted. Note they'll still hear you. It SHOULD be functionally like a lesser invisibility in addition to it's +10 hide.



Hold Animal
5/5 (Congradulations on reballancing Hold)
2/5 (Needs more bears)
There are precious few animals that are dangerous enough to merit special tactics, and the distinction between vermin, magical animals, things that look animalish (like rust monsters) makes it not worth the hastle. Additionally, there aren't enough good enchantment spells to make specializing a Ranger caster worthwhile, AND rangers already get feat clickies to charm animals. This spell is a fifth wheel.

[/quote]
I agree it should work on BEASTS, MAGICAL BEASTS, and ANIMALS, with it's hold monster like effect that has autocriticals.

Snare
1/5
1/5
Thematically awesome but currently useless.

When druids come in, they MUST get entangle which is an area of effect snare and level 1 with slowing to boot, entangle is not as good as web though , creatures can still attack they just cant move for a while, for snare to work it's a higher level spell it should trap creatures have a very high DC and work even if they're strong. Snare should act like a single target web trap.

Spike Growth
1/5
1/5
Cool animation but currently useless.

I agree the area of effect of the growth should be doubled, the damage should be upped a little and also corporeal creatures have a change of becoming crippled for 2d6 seconds when they fail their save. Then it may have some tactical advantage when used with missile fire and/or ranged spells. The red fens has vine stalkers that use it and it shows it as how weak it is.

[vyvy3369]

Several people have mentioned Grease as being a rather ineffective spell vs. enemies, but the change that I would like to see is having it actually follow the Balance rules. For example, any enemy with less than 5 ranks in Balance moving in Grease would be flat-footed and thus could be sneak attacked. I remember suggesting this way back, and several people mocked the idea as being unimportant, but if you're evaluating spells anyways...

From the SRD:
...A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details)...

Being Attacked while Balancing
You are considered flat-footed while balancing, since you can’t move to avoid a blow, and thus you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing. If you take damage while balancing, you must make another Balance check against the same DC to remain standing.

[AylinIsAwesome]

From a divine side:

Holy Smite:
4 on cost
1 on effectiveness

Even against Evil Outsiders this barely does over 150 if you're lucky, which against Evil Outsiders is...nothing. The Blindness effect wasn't much, but now with Holy Aura giving out blindness with no save...this spell has absolutely nothing going for it. This really needs the damage upped a lot on this spell for it to be worth anything.

Unholy Blight
4 on cost
1 on effectiveness

A worse version of the above because...when do we fight anything good? I understand it's supposed to be an evil against good spell, but why even give us this if it's going to be so useless? Maybe make it work on Neutral targets at full effectiveness or something?

Order's Wrath
4 on cost
1 on effectiveness

Again, needs a significant damage increase.

Chaos Hammer
4 on cost
2 on effectiveness

This also needs a pretty good damage boost. Only reason I give it a 2 is that the Slow effect is sometimes ok.

Bless/Mass Aid
5 on cost
-50 on effectiveness

That's right, a negative rating. These spells are such a total joke. A +1 morale bonus to attack rolls is meaningless when everyone already carries around pots of Heroism for +2 morale bonus! Please either change the bonus to something that stacks (say a Divine bonus) or give them something else to make them useful. The bonus to saves vs. Fear doesn't count (as we have Remove Fear for that) and the temp HP on Mass Aid is a total joke too.

Obscuring Mist
5 on cost
3 on effectiveness

This spell is alright, but even Quickened the casting time is very slow, and then it barely lasts any time at all. Please increase the duration of this, perhaps double it.

Spawn Screen
5 on cost
1 on effectiveness

I have never seen a time this spell could be useful. Perhaps add to it immunity from level-drain, but only from undead sources.

Glyph of Warding
5 on cost
1 on effectiveness

I mention this because of the Dragonmark, but... Please give this a huge damage increase. I don't think 1d8 per caster level, max 10d8 damage would be overpowering, and please also have it be affected by the Smiting lines.

Greater Glyph of Warding
5 on cost
1 on effectiveness

Again, because of the Dragonmark... I think this should be 1d8 per caster level max 20d8 (also affected by the Smiting lines) would be overpowered because it's a 6th level spell and Cometfall already does 20d10, is AoE, has knockdown and doesn't require you do drag mobs into it.

Searing Light
5 on cost
2 on effectiveness

When Maximized, Empowered, having Smiting 1 and wearing a Superior Potency 6 item, this spell barely tops 100 damage. I think this needs to be increased because it is a capstone spell for Favoured Souls, and the CLW one is just so much more effectiveness (in addition to also giving an advanced faith ability that is actually worth the AP, and giving a weapon that isn't utter trash). The CLW capstone can easily get to ~128 life healed easily (Life Magic 4, Superior Potency 6 item, Maximize and Empower) which is very meaningful healing, whereas Searing Light will only equal that if the player takes Smiting 4, which isn't worth it at all since that line affects a tiny amount of spells, and the spells it does affect are mostly garbage at this point. Even if the player did take Smiting 4, with mob HP so incredibly high it's not even worth having at all. I understand the damage on this spell can't go crazy, but multiplying it's current damage by 1.5 (or even 2) wouldn't be over the top.

Stalwart Pact
5 on cost
1 on effectiveness

This spell needs a serious boost. No good healer, FvS or Cleric, will let an extra 50 temp HP matter, DR 5/Magic won't stop anything, and the bonuses to saving throws won't stack with Recitation (once you fix it). Make the Damage Reduction be DR 5/- (it's really short duration and a Warchanter could give that anyway), and make the bonuses to saves stack.

Spell Resistance, Mass
5 on cost
1 on effectiveness

This spell does pretty much nothing. Almost everything it can stop another divine spell can already make you immune, and it's not even worth casting in Epics. Please up the level of SR that this spell gives so that it could actually protect someone from something. Not all the time or anything like that, but at least make the Epic mob have to roll a 5 or better bypass it. At the moment it's a spell easily left out of any FvS spell list.

Death Pact
5 on cost, 3 on material cost (takes up a useful inventory space)
2 on effectiveness

This spell is way too buggy. Sometimes I appear dead and I get the option to raise myself, sometimes it automatically raises me (and I wonder where my buffs went because it doesn't even say I died in party chat), and sometimes it just plain doesn't do anything. Also, by the time Clerics and FvS get this spell, raising at 10% HP can almost guarantee that they'll die again unless everything is already focused on the rest of the party. Have it raise at 50% HP, and please fix the bugs with it.

Implosion
5 on cost
3 on effectiveness

After recently picking the spell back up after dropping it months ago, these are my thoughts on it. The spell description needs to be updated first and foremost. Currently it doesn't list that it has any type of save at all (which should be added in). Letting Extend work on this spell (meaning you could hit 10 targets instead of 5) I feel would also be good, considering the 60 second cooldown it has which is just ridiculous.

Word of Recall
5 on cost
1 on effectiveness

A teleport to House D is kind of...well it's a joke, honestly. Please put some shrines other places (like a Silver Flame temple in Amrath), and we get to choose which one we want to teleport to. A few other examples could be a temple to Vulkoor in the Sands, something in Meridia (most important one) and a Lord of Blades one (maybe) on the Restless Isles near the raid.


Other than that, I can only say that there is still the need for more high level spells that are affected by the smiting line. A few months ago sirgog suggested adding in Storm of Vengeance as a level 9 spell, and I also feel this would be a good addition.

One important note is that Ice Storm and Wall of Fire won't stack - the Wall of Fire will be extinguished by the storm.

We're going to be going through a bunch of the spells and take the ones that are "less than optimal" and see what we can do with them, as well as adding more "specialty" spells that will by their nature be mostly Wizard oriented. (Deconstruct, maybe?)

We're also considering doing a pass on spell point costs, and a possible redo of the Sorcerer and Wizard damage amplification and spell crit lines - breaking the four elements back apart, adding more tiers (that may go beyond 40%) and adjusting the costs appropriately (Possibly 1/1/1/1/1/1... rather than 1/2/3/4, for instance).

We'll want feedback on what the "worst of the worst" spells are. I know the Power Words are way up there on that list, and there are a bunch of other terrible ones - maybe I'll go make that my next blog post...

Concerning the part in bold:

If you're doing that for Wizards and Sorcerers, please also do the same for Favoured Souls and Clerics, as well as Bards. I'm specifically referring to the updated costs here, not breaking apart anything (as that would make the smiting line even worse than it is now)

However, when doing this for FvS and Clerics, you will definitely need make more spells affected by the separate lines. We'll all take the Life Magic line, that's for certain, but the Smiting lines will still need boosts. I understand that Blade Barrier would be way too powerful (even though it doesn't work well with a party in Epic, yet Firewall does...), but adding in Firestorm and Flamestrike would do a little to make those lines better.


And if I haven't mentioned it yet, make the Smiting line worth something. Please.