18 vs 20: evasion or capstone?

[Esserbe]

Yeah, there's plenty of room for it...and Archmage is coming up, I wonder how that'll look...anyways, ignoring Pale Master, you have lots of Feats:

Normal Feats: 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18
Wizard Feats: 1, 5, 10, 15

Wizard gets a feat at 20 as well.

[CaptainFatpants]

I think I'll go pure wizard. 14 str 14 con 18 int amd the rest at elf base. Extend, heighten, sf/gsf: necromancy and enchantment, both spell penetration feats, and toughness. Not sure what I'd d spend my last two feats on. I'm thinking of taking a couple melee feats, I just need to find two that wouldn't be a complete waste
.. There may be none.

It cannot be said enough that, if you have access to them, warforged pure wizards (or splashes, if you like) are some of the most durable casters you can play. Quickened reconstruct cannot be emphasized enough. Plus, there is no DC or feat difference between Elf and Warforged. Drow, on the other hand, can have one more DC at the expense of squishiness and the aforementioned quickened reconstruct.

[Lansirill]

Oh I know wf would probably be better.... I've thought about just making a gimp fighter/wiz ojut of this toon and making a wf to actually be good... but, dangit, there ain't no robots in d&d. I have a wf fvs that's a blast to play but it has no character... a wiz would probably be the same.

[CaptainFatpants]

Oh I know wf would probably be better.... I've thought about just making a gimp fighter/wiz ojut of this toon and making a wf to actually be good... but, dangit, there ain't no robots in d&d. I have a wf fvs that's a blast to play but it has no character... a wiz would probably be the same.

Meh. I play PnP for character. I play DDO to zerg around and kill stuff.

[Esserbe]

Oh I know wf would probably be better.... I've thought about just making a gimp fighter/wiz ojut of this toon and making a wf to actually be good... but, dangit, there ain't no robots in d&d. I have a wf fvs that's a blast to play but it has no character... a wiz would probably be the same.

WF aren't robots, just like golems aren't either. They are magically animated sentient constructs, less advanced versions has existed in D&D for a long, long time, like homunculi.

[Montrose]

I've got a level 20 sorc, a level 20 wizard, and a level 17/2 wizard/rogue.

I obviously haven't played the multiclass in epics yet, but I don't find epic quests all that fun anyway, so it's not a big deal.

The multi is fun, but if I'm going to zerg a quest I'll play the sorc. If I want to run epics (for no good reason) I'll run the wiz for the DCs.

The splash build is great for soloing or short-manning things like rainbow in the dark, but it definitely suffers in quests like the Shroud from having a lower spell point pool and lower DCs.

The build plays very differently though and can do a whole lot of things (stealth, traps, melee, crowd control, etc), but DDO is more about doing one thing really well than about doing several things kinda well.

Anyway, YMMV, but unless you already have a capped wiz or sorc, I'd say go pure.

[rimble]

Wizard gets a feat at 20 as well.

The build we were discussing was only Wizard 17 or 18.

The splash build is great for soloing or short-manning things like rainbow in the dark, but it definitely suffers in quests like the Shroud from having a lower spell point pool and lower DCs.

Well just to specify, 1 DC from the capstone, and maybe another DC from an additional Spell Focus...and about 150 SP.

[Gratch]

Stupid long winded post got eaten by the "connected tubes" of the internet that decided I was no longer logged on.

Thoughts:

Fleshies can be elite (with the right player), but wfged wizzies are EPIC! (Mostly since you can reconstruct/repair yourself in Epic with DA crazed mobs magically slowing you)

Rog2 gets you UMD for rez'ing helping flesh healing and wearing snazy items intended for other races. Plus with the Int bump you can do traps even up to epic. Evasion plus insightful reflexes puts you on par with most rogues reflex save, though they do have improved...

Capstone and L20 gets you 1 dc (from 2 int), 2 more spell pen, more L8/9 spells and more SP's.

I have both a Wiz18/Rog2 and a Wiz20. And the most important distinction between those 2 builds is ... TR'ing them. No.... not the 2 levels. but TR'ing the wizzies is a much more important thing than the level split to me.

1 TR = +2 spell pen, +2 att points, and Arcane Initiate Feat (which is +1 dc to ALL spells and some magic missles to toss).
3 TR's is all that and +4 more stacking spell pen. Of course... that's a ton of time for an additive that you might instead use on completionist if you have that much time. But one TR... for a wizard... NICE.

[Phidius]

... Plus with the Int bump you can do traps even including epic...

Small correction in red.

[shadow_419]

Don't get me wrong, I loved playing my wiz/rog split. He was a blast to play, and even though he was drow he wasn't as squishy as people thought. I like to run epics though, especially with my guild and the spell pen in the desert especially was lacking. Even in raids like ToD, I'd have problems with spell pen on orthons in the end fight sometimes. I ended up Tr'ing into human and plan on going pure this time. I'm starting to get addicted to heal amp.

[daniel7]

I would only splash the rog levels in if you plan on doing traps and locks.
Also if you are a wf wizard you will probably get enough hp to survive a failed reflex. Then the only failed reflex you have to worry about is your hand pressing the key to hit reconstruct before it happens again.

[BuyerSeller]

I was 18/2 for a long time and I finally went to pure having never tried a level 20 pure wizard and I love it. The extra spell points, feats and the capstone is really nice. I personally notice a huge difference when I have to bypass spell res.

The pro's of 18/2 IMO - evasion and disable traps (when solo) and normally a higher UMD

The cons IMO - disable traps in groups is very slow with no spot, so I always had to search multiple times unless someone knew the exact location of the box. I always seemed to roll a 1 when I had to go through the trap to get to the box. I found myself a lot of the time not getting to be a wizard and having to be the rogue which was fine solo since I could do both at my own pace, but in a group it was annoying to me.

I could disable epic traps easily, but if I had to go through them there is no way I would live 99% of the time even with a 40 reflex save. I really think this is where rogues shine with improved evasion.

I honestly only think 18/2 is worth it if you solo 99% of the time. I like to solo a lot, but I found I can do it just as well with my 20 wizard.

The main thing though is to just play what is fun for you! That is all that matters really!

[Kale_Gresh]

Been reading a lot of old posts on this very subject. The answer (beyond play what is fun for you) appears to be what you are going to do long term with the tune. If you are going to solo or shortman mostly, or are just going for the 20 to TR then 18/2; if you are going to do epics at end game alot then 20 wiz; and heavy raiding most seem to say 20 wiz but it doesn't seem to be as big a deal in raids as it is in epic.

Since wiz is my next TR and I'm not playing it long term its 18/2 for me.

Gresh

[Varr]

First.....god I hate wf. I just suffered thru my sorc life as one......they are just awefull.

Second, go pure wizard if you want to be part of a party.
Be a 17/1/2 if you want to be the party.

It is very very difficult for a pure wizard to be the party unless you are a throw up in mouth toaster.

To contradict my preferences of playstyle and what I just said, my first life after obtaining completionist will likely be a pure drow 20 wizard archmage.

I'd like to see if with all the toys and all the build points if that toon can be the party. Self heal? Hp? Melee, no support there.....better hope sp holds.

By the way, I hate wf.

Sorry, this post really offers nothing to the conversation and is moslt ramblings. Carry on.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

As a side note, you need a decent reflex save or Evasion is useless.

Easy enough to get if you take insightful reflexes

[Thrudh]

you have resists that cut your damage (all but eliminating the need for evasion) and as a wizard shouldn't need to run through traps. Elite + traps need improved evasion unless you have super reflex saves which you don't.

IMHO evasion will get you 0.

If you are going to take rogue you may as well do it at level 1 so you can develop trap skills and umd.

That being said, it's crazy talk to multiclass wizard unless you are a soloer. You need the DC and spell pen for end game unless you want to be a haste bot.

At the point you are at, go pure wizard. Evasion alone isn't worth gimping your wizard IMHO.

Resists don't help against mechanical traps or enemy blade barriers...

Super Reflex saves are easy to get with Insightful Reflexes

I agree that if you're going to do this, do 2 levels of rogue and get the trap and UMD skills as well... splashing 2 levels of rogue or monk just for evasion is not worth it.

It is not crazytalk and it does not gimp your wizard to multi-class.. Your spell DC is 1 less than a pure wizard (from losing the capstone), and your spell pen is 2 less (from losing two levels). That does not equal gimp.

18/2 wizard/rogue is a solid build... It's fairly easy to survive without evasion as a 20 wizard too (especially if you're warforged). I did just fine with a pure dwarf wizard with no UMD skill (He's been TRed into a war-forged pure wizard though, and I will admit it's easier being able to self-heal)

[Thrudh]

To contradict my preferences of playstyle and what I just said, my first life after obtaining completionist will likely be a pure drow 20 wizard archmage.

What's the point of completionist and all those cool past-life feats if you're just going to be a pure 20 wizard?

Probably should do 3 wizard lives, 3 sorc lives, and 3 FvS lives (and since you're crazy enough to do completionist, maybe throw in 3 cleric lives so your webs are awesome too).

That would be a much more powerful character than a completionist character with your +1 to tactical DCs, +2 to range damage, and +1 Bard song usage on a pure wizard...

[slimkj]

I've played a number of arcane casters to cap, none of whom have had evasion. I've never felt like I needed evasion, so if what you have to give up for it is too much for you then don't worry that you'd be missing anything vital.

I see it as a luxury. With practice you can still do almost anything with a non-evasion build that you could with it. Evasion makes things easier. One could say to a newer player that if they wanted an easier time learning the class it might be valuable but I worry it would lead to laziness and not having the right twitch skills in place should that player ever move to a pure caster.

Like everything in this game, there's a trade off, and like so many things in this game, it comes down to personal taste.

Evasion: worry less about dying from certain events, sometimes making for easier play.
No evasion: learn other methods to avoid death and a higher tension, adrenaline style of play.

I like the latter, intense style of play generally but sometimes I play a very survivable build because it's been a hard day at work and I just want a relaxing evening.

[Ystradmynach]

I love evasion, out of the seven characters I play, five of them have evasion, even if it requires a multiclass to pull off.

The two characters of mine who don't have evasion are my bard and wizard. I regret not getting evasion for my bard, but I have no such regrets for my wizard. To me, it would just be too painful to level up and be two levels behind on spellpoints, spell penetration, spell damage, spell level and buff duration. Add that to the fact that wizards get plenty of spells to help mitigate damage, provide plenty of utility through their spells and that they aren't expected to run up in front of the party where they are likely to set off traps, then suddenly evasion and trapsmithing become less a priority for a wizard than for other party members.

The other reason to get rogue would be for UMD and related healing spell use, but wizards get other options to heal besides UMD, from being a repairable warforged, to halfling dragonmarks to pale master negative energy spells.

Anyway, I might some day make or TR into a rogue 2/wizard 18 since it still has excellent synergy even if they aren't as good spellcasters as a pure wizard, but I would strongly suggest leveling a pure wizard first before trying the rogue/wizard multiclass.

[Varr]

What's the point of completionist and all those cool past-life feats if you're just going to be a pure 20 wizard?

Probably should do 3 wizard lives, 3 sorc lives, and 3 FvS lives (and since you're crazy enough to do completionist, maybe throw in 3 cleric lives so your webs are awesome too).

That would be a much more powerful character than a completionist character with your +1 to tactical DCs, +2 to range damage, and +1 Bard song usage on a pure wizard...

Hehe, you see I specifically said my first life after obtaining compltionist.....hehe....I expect to play ddo for years to come....and don't see a point in others toons anymore......I'll certainly knock off a couple more wizard lives! Hehe.