Monk Shintao PRE

[Riggs]

Presumably the tomb of jade is just the earthgrab animation with a green tint. How does Jade Strike on a critical hit (being only 19-20) provide anything that SF/SB won't do but in an unreliable, uncontrolled and infrequent way? Well, it works on undead, and you are making them more vulnerable, but it's not overly fun.

How is the Shintao TOD ring set meant to benefit any monk that has actually worked to complete the set when they will already have a holy burst ring? The better thing would be to add +2 exceptional wisdom to it. Why? Monks can't put +2 wis in Incredible Potential given they need to use that slot for their bursts AND you've slanted all Shintao's to need high WIS to make sure of the wis modifiers in the DCs. It'd only be fair to give them +2 wis given all classes can put +x in those slots.

How is stunning at range meant to be of any real use given our dps is the very short range handwraps and not the ever so small and non ki generating ranged dps from shurikens?

How is moment of clarity meant to be a buff of any use given its miniscule duration?

Maybe I was hoping for some improvement but I'm not seeing anything of real interest from this rework. I am currently light side and built to make the best use possible from what you're working on here (so many aspects have + wis mod in their DC) but what is presented is of negligible appeal.

yeah, getting the +2 stat bonuses built in that every OTHER class can add into a ring would go a long way to making it actually useful and desired.

bypass good dr? utter waste for any monk that has 9 trophies. Evil? Unless a large % of new content involves good heros killing good outsiders - which is certainly not a 'good' path for a roleplaying game to go down as a 'heroic not evil' game - it will also be full of 'a waste of time'.

If I really, really want to bypass evil dr, I can craft one of the 4 useless non-Shintao rings I have sitting in the bank after 40 runs and just put evil burst on one of those. Swap it out for a good outsider - then back to a real ring for the other 99% of the game.

+2 wisdom, and/or a bonus to monk stunning ability would be useful all of the time, rather than 1% of the time.

[Eladrin]

Tomb of Jade, I'll accept on Bosses that are Purple or even Red named, but Oranged Named I expect it to land.

Tomb of Jade can land on orange named minibosses (unless they're immune to petrification for whatever reason).

Jade Strike works on everyone that fails the save.

Kukan-Do is classified as a Stun, and doesn't work on red or purples, or things that are sightless.

No changes were made to Dismissing Strike.

It's reliant on a vorpal (natural 20) anyway

Different Shintao Monk abilities have different chances to produce a Tomb of Jade effect. "Smite Tainted Creature" is on Vorpal, "Jade Strike" is on Crit, and "Tomb of Jade" is - well, on hit, since that's what it does.

"It is unfortunate that the Shintao ring has a damage bonus"
???? Yeah because since no one wants light monks for dps already - lets double down on that and be mad that their ring got +2 damage.

It is an unfortunate item effect because it's not in theme with the PrE. Nobody's mad - I'm just saying that something else would have been more appropriate. I also mentioned that we're not planning on changing it.

[dkyle]

But specializing is what PrE's (based on PnP PrC's) is all about. It means you are sacrificing overall power to shine in ONE area. Makes sense to me.

Choosing among, say, the Bard PrEs is certainly a matter of specializing at the expense of other things. A Warchanter has to give up some CC or healing ability due to needing to spend feats on melee. This is an informed choice based on information about the game that is unlikely to change dramatically.

On the other hand, specializing in one kind of monster is highly unstable. You not only need to base your choice on the current game, but on how you think the game will change in the future. Every new content release which affects the endgame will effectively be a buff or nerf. For example, KotC is awesome in the non-epic portion of the endgame. Now that epic is becoming more and more dominant, they're losing a lot of their luster. Similar with Ranger's Favored enemy.

Little bonuses vs specific monsters are fine, but making an entire PrE useless against everything else should be avoided.

"Evil monks get to do more damage, good monks get to watch other people do damage" Sweet monk recruiting poster.

Dark monks aren't evil, any more than Rogues are. A Good Dark monk would be one that believes in doing what it takes to defeat evil, bringing whatever force they can muster to bear, and doesn't buy into that Light monk hippy stuff about harmony and peace with the world.

[Riggs]

If Shintao got a 'favored enemy' bonus, a static, non clickie, non wait for recharge straight up to hit and damage bonus - that would be something.

Any monk can take stunning fist - if the pre is based on it - then the pre should also give a bonus at each tier.

Just like Kensai gets more str, more crits, more base damage, and skills, and tactics dc - unless say Shintao gets more than just smites and a dr bypass that all monks that are not 1 week old already have....it is going to be weak. Will wait and see about Jade strike - a special ability that doesnt do anything to raid bosses is not going to make anyone switch - not from a 500 point untyped 'hits everything in the game' strike.

99% of the game is about dps. That is how it has been built. if the main 'light/good' pre doesnt have a dps boosting component....well it is a lot of development effort for something that almost no one is going to bother taking no?

Any forgetting even Shintao for a second - so when are fists of light going to start doing light damage? And have more than a level 3 attack. A level 20 light monk using a level 3 attack? It is the same as if all the elemental stances had only a tier 1 attack. Doesnt sound weak to anyone?

[Angelus_dead]

But specializing is what PrE's (based on PnP PrC's) is all about. It means you are sacrificing overall power to shine in ONE area. Makes sense to me.

You are conflating very different kinds of specialization.

There is a huge difference between "I'm good at melee damage, I'm good at healing" and "I'm good at constructs, I'm good at dragons".

[J1NG]

Thank you Eladrin on clarifying on the Shintao-Monk modifications and new abilities.

I look forward to joining the ranks of Shintao-Monks once Update 7 is released.

One final thing, and off topic, but do we have any Epic HW coming our way? Since we don't have GS equivalents.

J1NG

[Angelus_dead]

Different Shintao Monk abilities have different chances to produce a Tomb of Jade effect. "Smite Tainted Creature" is on Vorpal, "Jade Strike" is on Crit, and "Tomb of Jade" is - well, on hit, since that's what it does.

Ok, there's new information. Level 6 Shintao can lock a monster in Tomb of Jade on a 20 roll of an active attack that also does damage, level 12 can do it on a 19-20 of an active attack that debuffs for more physical damage (mainly used to help your group beatdown a boss), and level 18 has an ability to do it on demand (roll of 2-20).

It is an unfortunate item effect because it's not in theme with the PrE.

It can be justified to say that a TOD set item is covering up for weaknesses/needs of the class. For example, Wizard belts give more spellpoints than Sorcerer belts, which is also against the theme of the character classes. But maybe Wizards felt that they needed it more.

[SINIBYTE]

Is there a change happening to Nyokos?

[dkyle]

Is there a change happening to Nyokos?

I don't think we're getting Ninja Spy III in U7, so I doubt it.

[khaldan]

Anything besides the tomb of jade happening to shintao I?

[Borror0]

But specializing is what PrE's (based on PnP PrC's) is all about. It means you are sacrificing overall power to shine in ONE area. Makes sense to me.

If it's specializing to change your role in a party, or modify the way your character is played, that is fine because your choices affect your gameplay. That is, specialization is just a way to modify how your character is played. Being good or bad at healing means that you will use very different strategies. On the other hand, "I'm good at killing undeads" or "I suck at killing undeads" does nothing to modify how you play your character. It just means you are good or bad at killing undeads.

Being bad at killing creature type X is not fun and is not necessary.

[rimble]

On the other hand, "I'm good at killing undeads" or "I suck at killing undeads" does nothing to modify how you play your character. It just means you are good or bad at killing undeads.

Sure it does: if I'm good at killing Undeads I'll play Undead quests, if I'm not, I'll avoid 'em.

Hence: My KotC Paladin is parked in Meridia as a Shroud loot-bot. (Not at all blaming Turbine for that, that's just how I chose to deal with my disappointment, hehe)

It's the same reason I don't play Rogues. Massively situational damage (Sneak Attack) just really irritates me.

[Borror0]

Sure it does: if I'm good at killing Undeads I'll play Undead quests, if I'm not, I'll avoid 'em.

Hence: My KotC Paladin is parked in Meridia as a Shroud loot-bot. (Not at all blaming Turbine for that, that's just how I chose to deal with my disappointment, hehe)

I tried to keep the post short, so that was bound to happen. I meant "I'm good at killing undeads' or 'I suck at killing undeads' does nothing to modify how you play your character inside a quest. It just means you are good or bad at killing undeads."

As I'm sure you'll agree, a rogue avoid undead/construct quests or a KotC avoiding non-evil outsider heavy quests is not fun game design.

It's the same reason I don't play Rogues. Massively situational damage (Sneak Attack) just really irritates me.

I'm fine with that, though rogues be given better tools to solo.

[Angelus_dead]

If it's specializing to change your role in a party, or modify the way your character is played

That's a bit imprecise, because changing which kinds of monsters you prioritize does impact your gameplay.

Being bad at killing creature type X is not fun and is not necessary.

Having 1-2 creature types you're weak against (like Rogues) is quite different (and more defensible) than only having 1-2 creature types you're strong against (like KOTC).

Anyhow, suggestion for Eladrin:
I wonder if Shintao Smite should continue to work against every evil-aligned creature (that Paladin Smite would work on), and just limit the fancy bonus effects to those that are Tainted. So the Shintao could hit Bugbears and Trolls with the hitpoint-damage effect of the Smite, giving him a benefit that's widely applicable.

[rimble]

I tried to keep the post short, so that was bound to happen. I meant "I'm good at killing undeads' or 'I suck at killing undeads' does nothing to modify how you play your character inside a quest. It just means you are good or bad at killing undeads."

As I'm sure you'll agree, a rogue avoid undead/construct quests or a KotC avoiding non-evil outsider heavy quests is not fun game design.

Yeah, I know, was just teasing a little...but yeah, it's true.

I guess what bugs me about the KotC situation isn't NECESSARILY that I'm offensively weaker...it's just that, whenever I step into those non-EO quests I just feel the weight of those now wasted KotC APs weighing down on me. I'd flip over to another AP spec for that quest if I could and be perfectly content.

I'm fine with that, though rogues be given better tools to solo.

Sure, it's not even particularly comparable, just wanted to point it out for the sake of full disclosure. To show my unhappiness with very situational damage goes beyond just this situation. It's a personal philosophy (with full acknowledgement that things shouldn't necessarily be catered to my personal philosophies).

[NXPlasmid]

Wow, this is quite nice. Both of my light monks are excited about U7!! woot! thank you Eladrin for all the info and banter! T

[Coldin]

Not a KOTC thread guys.

Just from what I see, it's this bonus against Tainted Creatures, and the "Jade Strikes" that are the main draw of Shintao. The ability to get through the various DR's is more like a perk to taking the enhancement line.

[Doxmaster]

Archmage? Time to renew my VIP, I guess. I'll need all the packs and all the character slots i can get.

[rimble]

Not a KOTC thread guys.

They're introducing a mechanic similar to an existing mechanic I don't like, it's perfectly relevant. I have conceded, though, that 'tainted' creatures don't seem to be nearly as restrictive as 'evil outsiders', so maybe this has wide enough value. I look forward to you Shintaos letting us know how you like it.

[Alanim]

So, Eladrin. Yes/no to how it works on these...

Monsters in the shroud... I'm assuming just Evil Outsiders, and not Extraplanar Evil Outsiders because that's kind of redundant.

Tieflings, will it work on them if they're in eberron, but NOT if they're in shavarath since they're "natural outsiders(who cares if they're kind of naturally evil)" there?

Do we have Extraplanar Undead??

Hmmm, that's all I think...