Monk Shintao PRE

[Diyon]

and the ability to expend ki to stun opponents at range

That's sounding pretty cool. Also, note, Eladrin mentioned these abilities working on angels, I hope that's a hint of some high level stuff to come soon.

[Fafnir]

Presumably the tomb of jade is just the earthgrab animation with a green tint. How does Jade Strike on a critical hit (being only 19-20) provide anything that SF/SB won't do but in an unreliable, uncontrolled and infrequent way? Well, it works on undead, and you are making them more vulnerable, but it's not overly fun.

How is the Shintao TOD ring set meant to benefit any monk that has actually worked to complete the set when they will already have a holy burst ring? The better thing would be to add +2 exceptional wisdom to it. Why? Monks can't put +2 wis in Incredible Potential given they need to use that slot for their bursts AND you've slanted all Shintao's to need high WIS to make sure of the wis modifiers in the DCs. It'd only be fair to give them +2 wis given all classes can put +x in those slots.

How is stunning at range meant to be of any real use given our dps is the very short range handwraps and not the ever so small and non ki generating ranged dps from shurikens?

How is moment of clarity meant to be a buff of any use given its miniscule duration?

Maybe I was hoping for some improvement but I'm not seeing anything of real interest from this rework. I am currently light side and built to make the best use possible from what you're working on here (so many aspects have + wis mod in their DC) but what is presented is of negligible appeal.

[Jamma]

I hope the buffs are strong. Buffs are universal, they don't suffer from the 'one off' Favored Enemy problem. I'm pretty addicted to Ninja Spy, but I'd really like Light Monks to be more than just ToD anti-stun-bots.

While Ninja Spy could be well used by all 3 typical monk builds, with non-stat specific abilities, Shintao appears to becoming even more focused on dex/wis builds. Its unfortunate, as long as the light path 'buffs' are crippled with 10 second to 1 minute durations (which gets old around level 4 for most players, there's a reason EXTEND is a frequently taken metamagic feat), and the light path CC is non-existent, I think light path will become the domain of the rare high wisdom monk.

[rest]

the ability to expend ki to stun opponents at range

WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA!!

Am I reading this correctly, and you can stun stuff from FAR AWAY?! Or did you just word it so it sounds like that, and is sill touch range?

[Symar-FangofLloth]

That's sounding pretty cool. Also, note, Eladrin mentioned these abilities working on angels, I hope that's a hint of some high level stuff to come soon.

He mentioned Planetars, which are Angels, and we already have Eladrin, which should count as Angels as well.

But unless they're either visiting/invading Shavarath or Eberron, the only way we'd see many angels is a trip to Syrania. On Shavarath we should be encountering Archons instead.

[Narcissistic_Martyr]

The PrE focuses on defeating "unnatural" creatures - aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders' (basically, anything that's extraplanar and isn't an Inevitable, Formian, Modron, or level 20 monk - it does work on devils and angels - get off my plane!), and undead.

I see the names of two new critters. Perhaps a hint at content to come? Care to comment further?

[rimble]

While Ninja Spy could be well used by all 3 typical monk builds, with non-stat specific abilities, Shintao appears to becoming even more focused on dex/wis builds. Its unfortunate, as long as the light path 'buffs' are crippled with 10 second to 1 minute durations (which gets old around level 4 for most players, there's a reason EXTEND is a frequently taken metamagic feat), and the light path CC is non-existent, I think light path will become the domain of the rare high wisdom monk.

Yeah, this PrE (or maybe Henshin Mystic, one of the PrEs at least) should increase duration on things. If this is the 'buff' PrE (not sure what sort of category Henshin Mystic is) then here seems like a good place for it. I'm not following your Ability<-->PrE correlations though.

[Eladrin]

He mentioned Planetars, which are Angels, and we already have Eladrin, which should count as Angels as well.

Eladrin are Eladrin. They're more chaotic than Angels.

Am I reading this correctly, and you can stun stuff from FAR AWAY?!

Yes, that's exactly what Kukan-do will do.

You lock gazes with an enemy, stunning them for a short period of time on a failed Fortitude save. Any effects that modify your Stunning Blow or Stunning Fist DC's also affect this ability. Sightless creatures are unaffected by this ability.

A significant portion of end game is Epic now too. That's what enticed me about KotC...+LotsOfDamage versus Evil Outsiders, heck yeah, gonna rock end game...oh, end game isn't about Evil Outsiders anymore? Well, ****...

KotC is limited to evil outsiders only, and mostly oriented to CE outsiders. The Shintao Monk has elementals, mephits, outsiders of all types except for the Maruts, all undead, xoriat creatures like beholders and thaarak hounds - the array of potential opponents is much wider.

Yeah, this PrE (or maybe Henshin Mystic, one of the PrEs at least) should increase duration on things.

We are planning on having the Henshin Mystic have the option to perform different finishers for increased durations for their light effects, and likely PBAOE dark effects.

I see the names of two new critters. Perhaps a hint at content to come? Care to comment further?

No hints there (yet). I'm not really a content dev, I'm just being thorough.

[rimble]

Yes, that's exactly what Kukan-do will do.

You lock gazes with an enemy, stunning them for a short period of time on a failed Fortitude save. Any effects that modify your Stunning Blow or Stunning Fist DC's also affect this ability. Sightless creatures are unaffected by this ability.

Yes, good caveat, that was my obvious initial objection.

KotC is limited to evil outsiders only, and mostly oriented to CE outsiders. The Shintao Monk has elementals, mephits, outsiders of all types except for the Maruts, all undead, xoriat creatures like beholders and thaarak hounds - the array of potential opponents is much wider.

Conceded. I'd advise Shintao Monks to get pretty familiar with creature types to know when to use what you got.

Would it be absurd to introduce Detect Taint or Detect Evil type abilities for Shintao Monks and Paladins, respectively, that put some sort of visual indicator on appropriate targets? I have no idea how that would work...just a random thought...

[rest]

Eladrin are Eladrin. They're more chaotic than Angels.


Yes, that's exactly what Kukan-do will do.

You lock gazes with an enemy, stunning them for a short period of time on a failed Fortitude save. Any effects that modify your Stunning Blow or Stunning Fist DC's also affect this ability. Sightless creatures are unaffected by this ability.


KotC is limited to evil outsiders only, and mostly oriented to CE outsiders. The Shintao Monk has elementals, mephits, outsiders of all types except for the Maruts, all undead, xoriat creatures like beholders and thaarak hounds - the array of potential opponents is much wider.


We are planning on having the Henshin Mystic have the option to perform different finishers for increased durations for their light effects, and likely PBAOE dark effects.


No hints there (yet). I'm not really a content dev, I'm just being thorough.

Eladrin, to put it simply, YOU ROCK. Thank you for the communication you've been having with us lately. It is a much needed breath of fresh air. With you, MadFloyd and FlimsyFirewood actually posting and talking with the community.. it's awesome. Thank you. This is what we've been clamoring for for months, if not years (since the WDA went away).

Thank you.

(Now tell me about warchanter II... )

[Angelus_dead]

It's a secondary benefit of the PrE.

The PrE focuses on defeating "unnatural" creatures - aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders' ..., and undead.

That list is pretty similar to one suggested by players before, such as this one from Jan 09:

Shintao: Passive bonus to attack/damage against evil undead/outsiders/abberations, and prehaps other kinds of extra-corrupt monsters

Two concerns about that list of Tainted enemies:
Minor- How about Blackguards? They're from Eberron and retain their old creature type, but they've been quite literally tainted by alien forces.
Major- How about Rhakshsa? They're from Eberron and not extraplanar, but they're surely a force of corruption and evil. Probably the list should include both extraplanar beings (minus the super-lawful), and native outsiders who are chaotic or evil.

"unnatural" creatures - aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders' (basically, anything that's extraplanar and isn't an Inevitable

But an Inevitable is not a Lawful Outsider... they're Constructs, not Outsiders at all.

Maybe the list of Tainted creatures should be:
Aberrations
Undead
Extraplanar beings, except those devoted to Law (which is often shown by having DR/Chaos)
Native outsiders who are chaotic or evil
Other creatures who have a transformative devotion to one of the above, such as Blackguard, Pale Master, Voidmind, or Impure Prince.

Pure damage focus is the dark path's strength. It should be better at that.

Yes, but hopefully the Shintao's damage-dealing feature, Smite Evil, has been improved to the point that it's Ki-efficient compared to the Enduring Strike you could use anyway. (As the old Shintao Smite could actually reduce DPS by clicking it).

You perform a melee attack that is anathema to tainted creatures, that increases their physical damage vulnerability by 10%

110% multiplier on incoming physical damage, huh. That's pretty strong, and an interesting variation on the Dark monk's multiplier for elemental energy. "Party friendly" indeed- gives the Shintao monk some of the "leadership" role you wanted, where teammates fight better by his example. Of course this power gives a real benefit to the monk's personal damage, unlike the Dark energy debuffs.

It's interesting to compare against the damage bonus from bard songs... I guess it won't infringe on bard role too much, because they can both apply, and this one is limited to a minority of enemy types. A 10% bonus would be too weak to notice on low-level characters, but they're not going to group with a monk of this level. It would be interesting to consider replacing the multiplicative damage bonus with an additive +X damage per physical attack (that would bias more towards helping players who TWF or whose damage was lower to start with)

Creatures that are both extraplanar and either aberrations or undead receive double this effect.

That brings up an old question: the Beholders in Invaders would be extraplanar Aberrations according to the storyline, but Banishment didn't used to work on them.

[Jamma]

Yeah, this PrE (or maybe Henshin Mystic, one of the PrEs at least) should increase duration on things. If this is the 'buff' PrE (not sure what sort of category Henshin Mystic is) then here seems like a good place for it. I'm not following your Ability<-->PrE correlations though.

None of the abilities from Ninja Spy have a stat check.

For Shintao Monk, smite evil, dismissing strike, jade strike all have Wisdom stat modifiers (to damage or whether the effect works). I'll presume the long range stun strike has a wisdom component as well.

The only reason for a veteran pure monk character to even take Shintao Monk is for these 3 abilities. If you're going to invest in Stunning Fist, useless second feat, and 13 AP to have these abilities, it'd be non-productive not to push the singular stat that makes all of them function.

For example, a strength build WF light path monk wouldn't waste the feats/ap's on Shintao, but a wisdom build halfling dark path monk would take Ninja Spy in a heartbeat.

[Xeca]

So you can lower the fort of on a successful fail on the new finishers. Does that actually make undead prone to crits? (ie lowering from 100% fort to 75/50%) Or does that portion of the finisher just increase screen spam of "immune" when used on undead?

[Asketes]

So you can lower the fort of on a successful fail on the new finishers. Does that actually make undead prone to crits? (ie lowering from 100% fort to 75/50%) Or does that portion of the finisher just increase screen spam of "immune" when used on undead?

or... portals?


flesh golums?

[rimble]

For Shintao Monk, smite evil, dismissing strike, jade strike all have Wisdom stat modifiers (to damage or whether the effect works). I'll presume the long range stun strike has a wisdom component as well.

I see. Well, I guess the way I see it, they kinda flip-flop.

Light Path: No DC checks involved in any Finishers, mostly buffs and restorative affects.
Dark Path: Every Finisher has a DC check, mostly debuffs and status effects.

Shintao PrE: Everything has a DC check involved, mostly debuffs and status effects.
Ninja Spy PrE: No DC checks involved, just raw damage.

So, I guess to me, they both have a place for Wis...however, you could of course choose any direction and not worry about the DC based abilities of either if you want. Of course, you are investing AP into Shintao, so to do so and not take benefit of all it has to offer may be a little suboptimal.

[Eladrin]

That list is pretty similar to one suggested by players before, such as this one from Jan 09:

It certainly does.

Two concerns about that list of Tainted enemies:
Minor- How about Blackguards? They're from Eberron and retain their old creature type, but they've been quite literally tainted by alien forces.
Major- How about Rhakshsa? They're from Eberron and not extraplanar, but they're surely a force of corruption and evil. Probably the list should include both extraplanar beings (minus the super-lawful), and native outsiders who are chaotic or evil.

You're correct - Raksasha should probably be on the list. We'll think about the other.

But an Inevitable is not a Lawful Outsider... they're Constructs, not Outsiders at all.

This is one of my mental blocks. I can never remember if Maruts are Constructs with Extraplanar Traits or Outsiders with Construct Traits. Argh!

Maybe the list of Tainted creatures should be:
Aberrations
Undead
Extraplanar beings, except those devoted to Law (which is often shown by having DR/Chaos)
Native outsiders who are chaotic or evil
Other creatures who have a transformative devotion to one of the above, such as Blackguard, Pale Master, Voidmind, or Impure Prince.

I like the idea of expanding it to fit this list.

Yes, but hopefully the Shintao's damage-dealing feature, Smite Evil, has been improved to the point that it's Ki-efficient compared to the Enduring Strike you could use anyway. (As the old Shintao Smite could actually reduce DPS by clicking it).

Smite Evil will be replaced with Smite Tainted Creature, which will lock the opponent in a Tomb of Jade on a Vorpal strike. The cooldown has also been reduced. I'm looking for ways to improve all Smite effects through itemization options.

Protection from Evil has been replaced with a permanent, passive Protection from Tainted Creatures effect that increases with each tier.

That brings up an old question: the Beholders in Invaders would be extraplanar Aberrations according to the storyline, but Banishment didn't used to work on them.

Many Xoriat creatures need to be updated to extraplanar. Especially in Invaders, Delerium, and possibly the Subterrane.

Edit:

Would it be absurd to introduce Detect Taint or Detect Evil type abilities for Shintao Monks and Paladins, respectively, that put some sort of visual indicator on appropriate targets?

That's a good idea. It won't be a short term (U7) addition, but I'll see what I can do.

[Angelus_dead]

I like the idea of expanding it to fit this list.

A suggestion for how to describe the list in-game:
When players read the Shintao enhancement description, tier 1 says "against Tainted creatures (such as undead, aberrations, and most extraplanar beings)".

To go into the whole list would get too wordy, and start to push the tooltip offscreen. However, players can talk to any Monk trainer NPC and he'll have options to explain the specialties in more detail, which would include all the specifics of what Shintao abilities can work against.

[Coldin]

Thanks for all the info Eladrin. Shintao is looking a lot better of a PRE to take now.


Edit: It'd be nice if maybe some of those Fortification reduction powers came over to the rogues. Just saying.

[Gratch]

Wow... that's a lot of Shintao info. Thanks. Will be interesting to test.

Hmmm... so if Archmage is hitting tier V (the L18 tier), will the archmage ToD ring set also get it's PRE bonus (and for extra credit - any hints on said bonus)?

[dkyle]

Protection from Evil has been replaced with a permanent, passive Protection from Tainted Creatures effect that increases with each tier.

Isn't this actually kind of a nerf to Solar Phoenix type builds? The Prot Evil move is currently the most Ki-efficient way to set up the healing finisher.