Monk Shintao PRE

[SINIBYTE]

I don't think we're getting Ninja Spy III in U7, so I doubt it.

That sucks... I held out as long as I could for the other set, but finally put Holy Burst on my Nyokos... which sucks as I plan to TR into a monk tank, and the threat reduction will be a pain in the ass to pull off holding aggro...

[Diyon]

Do we have Extraplanar Undead??

Hmmm, that's all I think...

Well the Mabar room in PoP should be extraplanar, and lets not forget the coming fall public event...

[Borror0]

Having 1-2 creature types you're weak against (like Rogues) is quite different (and more defensible) than only having 1-2 creature types you're strong against (like KOTC).

Of course, but that's more a token of how bad the latter is than it is a defense of the former.

You only need to look at the many times in DDO's history where rogues have been excluded from undead heavy quests or their constant demand to by able to overcome at least some amount of Fortification as an example to remember the flaws of that design strategy. Imagine how unpleasant it would have been to play a class weak against evil outsiders from February 2008 to November 2008! (Though, at that time "anything but a ranger" was probably close enough.)

Not a KOTC thread guys.

I now made this a "please buff rogues" thread. Still complaining?

[Angelus_dead]

Yes, that's exactly what Kukan-do will do.

You lock gazes with an enemy, stunning them for a short period of time on a failed Fortitude save. Any effects that modify your Stunning Blow or Stunning Fist DC's also affect this ability. Sightless creatures are unaffected by this ability.

About Kukan-do:

1. Presumably this is the Shintao3 active ability, gained at level 18. Wild guess: the Ki cost will be rather high.
2. The effect is stronger than Kukan-do in D&D 3.x Oriental Adventures, which only prevents magical abilities, instead of being a full stun. (The OA version also debuffed the Monk for the same duration!)
3. Somewhat solves the problem of Shintao requiring Stunning Fist to qualify, but including no abilities related to stunning.
4. Shares the old Shintao2 Dismissal weakness of being meaningless on bosses.
5. Sightless creatures might basically just be Tharak Hounds, maybe also bats or some vermin. Note that Tharak Hounds have a weird thing of getting blinded by greensteel radiance weapons, so it's hard to say if they still see visible light regardless of having eyeballs. That might or might not protect against a "locking gaze" attack. And how do you lock gaze with someone with 11 eyes?
6. Naturally Grasp the Earth Dragon would seem to protect against this... although it doesn't work on Marut Thunder Punch Stun, so whatever.
7. Kukan-do will be a pretty useful feature, as it gives the Shintao monk some of the "Tab Click Win" ability to pop around the corner and immediately neutralize an enemy caster, without having to run into touch range.
8. It's pretty comparable to Flesh to Stone, and often better. Fortitude DC 10+10+10+wis vs 10+9+1+cha, or about +5 in favor of the Monk, despite the Sorcerer having a higher relevant ability score.
9. Looking at Kukan-do alongside Power Word Stun makes that spell seem comically weak. Is it right for a Monk to be that much better at magically stunning an enemy from range? I reiterate the suggestion to allow Power Word spells to effect creatures above the hitpoint limit if a saving throw is failed.

[Junts]

Re: shintao


Eladrin, please make all shintao abilities work with whirling steel strike and/or let it open a 1 ap enhancement that allows all monk strikes to work with it.

Wss is a monk of the sovereign host ability and having it associated with the "light" path pre is logical. Further, without such an enhancement, whirling steel strike will continue to never be a good strategy, like the shortswords of ninjaspy are never used.

[Scarecrow9]

well i am definetally stoked for the shintao updates. i feel they really fit with wat a monk is imho, which is masters of combating the supernatural with lots of cool attacks. if i wanted a dps class, i would make a fighter or barbarian, but i highly enjoy jumping into a mob and quiv palming one thing, dismissing another (which id like to point out a couple things on that i think many over look: 1. works on eles and 2. uses full wis mod to the dc not half like most other things) stunning another and charging up shining star while i beat down the stunned mob....etc. and all the while laughing at any cacsters or supernatural creatures like beholders. i thouroughly enjoy the speed and intensity of monk gameplay wen taking on mobs, and tho not dps kings, again if i wanted one id build another class, they certainly dont hurt as badly as many ppl make them out to sound! if a group with a few more monks/rogues/bards then usual in a group wipes, its usually because of the players not the class.
also another reason i love monks so much is how little equip they need to carry around compared to most other melee classes. from the sounds of things with update 7, shintao monks with the tod set have pretty much all the drs bypasses except slashing/piercing, and i am all for cutting down on my handwraps. currently i extremely rarely find myself using any other wraps them my plus 5 holy/pg and my stunning 10 wraps.
cant wait for update 7! now if only i can get a new hard drive by then....

[Angelus_dead]

"This set item bonus allows your unarmed attacks to bypass Good and Evil damage reduction."

I suggest it also include DR/Law bypass.

You might think: "But monks already beat DR/Law at a lower level than they can equip a TOD ring". That's true now, but in the future there might either be Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat trainable to anyone, or Wildshaped Druids who want to attack Tharak Hounds with their teeth.

[Scarecrow9]

I suggest it also include DR/Law bypass.

You might think: "But monks already beat DR/Law at a lower level than they can equip a TOD ring". That's true now, but in the future there might either be Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat trainable to anyone, or Wildshaped Druids who want to attack Tharak Hounds with their teeth.

nice foresight. just as long as adding this doesnt delay the release any however as it has no purpose atm...

[Drakos]

You are conflating very different kinds of specialization.

There is a huge difference between "I'm good at melee damage, I'm good at healing" and "I'm good at constructs, I'm good at dragons".

The point isn't what they specialize in, it is that PrE's are an means to an end. The Shinto PrC is about confronting Taint in the world. They forgo more traditional Monk training to delve specifically into methods of fighting Taint. This is the purpose behind the class. I see NO reason the theme/purpose behind the class should chnge just because this is an MMO.

My point was that in the game they tout as the basis for this game, PrC's are a deviation from the standard classes to learn a specialty. Not all PrC's specialize in a specific class feature, many specialize around a common goal, theme, organization, etc... The class this is representing is about fighting taint in all it's forms, so the associated abilities aer reflecting that.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

I suggest it also include DR/Law bypass.

You might think: "But monks already beat DR/Law at a lower level than they can equip a TOD ring". That's true now, but in the future there might either be Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat trainable to anyone, or Wildshaped Druids who want to attack Tharak Hounds with their teeth.

I interpreted his statement as the effect you get with the set for having Shintao3. If that is the case, it nullifies your line of thought and suggestion. Sorry.

Unless you can come up with a way to get Shintao3 on a non-Monk, that is.

[Angelus_dead]

I see NO reason the theme/purpose behind the class should chnge just because this is an MMO.

Ok, but working game designers have to be highly aware of the factors that can outweigh verisimilitude. This is a topic that's been exhaustively documented.

[Drakos]

I tried to keep the post short, so that was bound to happen. I meant "I'm good at killing undeads' or 'I suck at killing undeads' does nothing to modify how you play your character inside a quest. It just means you are good or bad at killing undeads."

It's not like your worse at killing anything than you were without a PrE. You still kill non-taint creatures as well as befor, your just better at dealing with those with taint.

[Baahb3]

With these new abilities coming out that you said are classified as a Stun Eladrin could you please give them different icons for our hotbars.

You couple Stunning fist, Void strikes, jade strike and smite and everything else that has the single fist icon, your hotbar can start to be a guessing game on which strike is where.

Even if you just added a color to the background it would help. Leave Stunning fist but add a purple background for void strikes, green for jade, red for smites...etc.

This won't help our color blind friends out there but it would be a start.

[Angelus_dead]

It's not like your worse at killing anything than you were without a PrE. You still kill non-taint creatures as well as befor, your just better at dealing with those with taint.

Nope: Spending all those feats and APs does make you worse at fighting other kinds of monsters than if you had no prestige specialty enhancement!

In fact, at the present time a Shintao monk is often (depending on level) inferior at fighting Evil Outsiders than if he had no specialty, and had just put the APs into elemental stances, crane path, and halfling guile.

[Borror0]

It's not like your worse at killing anything than you were without a PrE. You still kill non-taint creatures as well as befor, your just better at dealing with those with taint.

In addition to what Angelus_dead said, if we assume that developers try to balance builds, either that build become overpowered against that/those creature type(s) or it becomes underpowered against that/those creature type(s). It's almost that binary, and neither of these two outcomes are desirable.

A good example is the rangers class, in Module 6 and 7.

[QuantumFX]

Re: shintao


Eladrin, please make all shintao abilities work with whirling steel strike and/or let it open a 1 ap enhancement that allows all monk strikes to work with it.

Wss is a monk of the sovereign host ability and having it associated with the "light" path pre is logical. Further, without such an enhancement, whirling steel strike will continue to never be a good strategy, like the shortswords of ninjaspy are never used.

And add WSS to the list or optional feats to qualify for Shintao.

[Diyon]

And add WSS to the list or optional feats to qualify for Shintao.

Yes! Please, that would be great. Also WSS as a monk bonus feat option would be nice too.

[Fafnir]

I've slept on it and I'm still disappointed... and I've got the wisdom to make these things work.

Basically:
- got stuff I already have (silver/good bypass)
- got stuff I think is mediocre (situational extraplanar abilities; stun from range)

...and the AP/feat cost is too high.

Dark monks are so very far ahead.

[Coldin]

Dark monks are so very far ahead.

I'd say TOO far ahead, honestly. Touch of Death should probably be balanced some, and reduced in power. But I don't think the devs plan to do that.

That said, I like what I'm seeing with Shintao. If they get the smites working right with Unarmed, and it affects a majority of monsters, and the Protection from Taint (hehe) turns out alright, I'll be pretty happy with it.

[TheIvanovFamily]

Unless there is some specialization in the new Shintao path that improves their ability with Stunning Fist I will continue to be underwhelmed with fancy abilities with saves that will fail against the only mobs they will be worth using against (raid bosses, DC 40ish [with high wisdom] recurring save does not cut it).

Especially when compared with +3d6 sneak, 25% conceal on command, and 500-1500 damage naughty touches every 15 seconds.