Khyber Drama Thread #608

[Daliyn]

If it's not a mana starved quest, then telling your party to pot every status ailment is asking them to trade their paid resource for your free resource.

no. Especially on my FvS, but also on my clerics, spell slots are far too precious to waste them for such redundant stuff. Remove curse the only exception, and only in certain highlvl quests. Everything else I have to wandwhip as well. Which are my paid ressources, and I won't waste them on players too stingy to get their own pots.

[CombatLibrarian]

there is no argumenting if you permanently feel personally involved here. no one implied nor said you would play a stupid melee. still thats the base of your argumentation. maybe someone would be right, if he/she would imply it...

To quote The Bard...
...lolwut?

I'm...not sure what exactly you're getting at...or how I'd diagram those sentences...or what some of those words are. At any rate, it was implied multiple times that I don't know how DDO healing and indeed, how DDO mana works. The logical forerunner to that is the assumption that I've only played mana-less melee characters...fighters, barbarians, rogues, monks.

Or, haven't played the game at all, which makes even less sense, so I didn't go there.

anyway. those stupid melee's learned it the hard way (in the old days) when curses were permanent and stayed through dungeon exit. there were no khorthos +2 hit sets and no insight goggles back then. ever tried to do waterworks with -7 to hit (compared to today)? pots were/are expensive.
but dying was
a) not fun
b) you got xp penalty
c) not completing does not generate any cash.

so, sure, you could yell at the lvl 5 cleric to remove your curse but he most likely told you the same what you get told today (and rightfully so). don't have the spell. got more important ones to load. go buy a pot or hand me a wand...


to be more general:

be prepared to react yourself if something happenes that does influence the effectivity of your role in the group.

If my offensive caster fvs has room for her offensive kit, a decent selection of healing spells, AND remove curse, remove disease, and restoration, and heal. Then you, if a dedicated healer, have room for a full cleansing kit. (And yes, I have other, actual dedicated healer toons. I'm talking about my offensive fvs because she's the prime example of limited healer kit spell selection). Seriously, if you're a dedicated healer, what are you filling those spell slots with?

[blitzschlag]

To quote The Bard...
...lolwut?

I'm...not sure what exactly you're getting at...or how I'd diagram those sentences...or what some of those words are. At any rate, it was implied multiple times that I don't know how DDO healing and indeed, how DDO mana works. The logical forerunner to that is the assumption that I've only played mana-less melee characters...fighters, barbarians, rogues, monks.

Or, haven't played the game at all, which makes even less sense, so I didn't go there.

i see you did understand my gibberish in the end (i can rewrite it in german so you can mock me a bit for my native language aswell). anyway, care to quote any of those multiple times were it was implied that you don't know anything about ddo healing?

you made assumptions while we just said that everyone is entitled to look after themselves.

If my offensive caster fvs has room for her offensive kit, a decent selection of healing spells, AND remove curse, remove disease, and restoration. Then you, if a dedicated healer, have room for a full cleansing kit. (And yes, I have other, actual dedicated healer toons. I'm talking about my offensive fvs because she's the prime example of limited healer kit spell selection).

i don't tell you how you play your char. if you feel like removing everything from the whole party, be my guest but don't expect the same from other with the cleric/fvs symbol (dedicated or not).

[CombatLibrarian]

i see you did understand my gibberish in the end (i can rewrite it in german so you can mock me a bit for my native language aswell).

Well, some *** for tat with your backhanded comments about my observations. And, to be fair, I didn't say your english skills meant you were wrong. I pointed them out, and then explained, separately, why I disagree with you. I'm also getting used to the influx of EU players, and, well...quite often seeing that on these or...well, most gaming forums, means I'm looking at someone who has that shaky a grasp on their native language. If english isn't yours, well fair play to you.

anyway, care to quote any of those multiple times were it was implied that you don't know anything about ddo healing?

Gladly.

In the post that I was actually responding to, which, I'll point out, wasn't even yours.

He said nothing about solo'ing.
And it doesn't matter if there's a dedicated healer or not. In this game, mana bars do not replenish over time like they do in many other games. Asking the "healer" to constantly remove these affects from you reduces their usefulness in battle.
Asking them to remove these affects from you is self-centered play.
Taking care of these ailments yourself, even when there is a dedicated healer, is good teamwork because it saves other players' mana for when it's needed.

It's the same players that constantly ask for these things that blame the healers when they die.... even if said healer is out of mana because they were curing needless ailments.
If they spend all of their mana curing ailments, they won't have the mana needed to heal.
Playing a healer is a thankless job, and everything is always "their fault." Help them out a bit.

Pointing out to me that mana bars don't replenish in DDO, shows implication on the part of the writer that I do not understand this in the first place. Attempting to explain to me what "playing a healer" is like, again, implies that I do not know this.

Furthermore
you made assumptions while we just said that everyone is entitled to look after themselves.

Tell me what false assumptions I made. From posts I was actually responding to, which I'll point out again does not include yours.

You're throwing "we" around a bit too freely, and I think that's creating some of the confusion here.

i don't tell you how you play your char. if you feel like removing everything from the whole party, be my guest but don't expect the same from other with the cleric/fvs symbol (dedicated or not).

Neither you nor I individually is the final arbiter of DDO as a whole. That said: I, personally, am perfectly free to expect of healers performance which I put out myself. If I can ask for it without hypocrisy, than telling me what I can and cannot expect from others is just setting yourself up with a false crown of arbitration. You're perfectly free to avoid me in the future, should you encounter me, if you feel that's unfair.

[blitzschlag]

Neither you nor I individually is the final arbiter of DDO as a whole. That said: I, personally, am perfectly free to expect of healers performance which I put out myself. If I can ask for it without hypocrisy, than telling me I can and cannot expect from others is just setting yourself up with a false crown of arbitration. You're perfectly free to avoid me in the future, should you encounter me, if you feel that's unfair.

why should i avoid you? if we meet i will be one of the scarce players that tell you not to top em up after a battle because i carry lots of pots. also i will have downed a remove curse pot faster than you could possibly find the spell on your hotbar (slight exaggeration maybe).

on the other side you will probably be disappointed because if i level a healer you will most likely not see me handing out the stuff (there are exceptions as i already said in a previous post).

one question:
you (personally) as someone that actually played a/some healers already: do you carry those pots/wands on your melees? and if yes, do you "wait and see" or ask for removal if a healer is around? or do you just gulp a pot and move on?

[d4rkstars]

so what is the part you play as cleric?

you buff and go afk ? or insult people because they could buy wands and pots to buff themself

you dont want to heal, you dont want to help a debuff team mate, so what do you do ?

idd all those things could be done by the player himself, but i don see the point of being rude, useless and proud of it.


if the guy ask politely for help, there is no reason to act that bad. i always carry what i should (but again as some people stated this is because i have been playing for long and have insane amout of money to waste) but if i have a debuff i will ask help to the cleric first. And if he is like you, i ll use my pot and keep looking at his never ending mana bar he never uses.... and feel bad for him to be such useless....

[unscythe]

oh yeah, this caster was a tr as well.

Another example that wings around your name do not equate experience/knowledge/player skill.

[CombatLibrarian]

why should i avoid you? if we meet i will be one of the scarce players that tell you not to top em up after a battle because i carry lots of pots. also i will have downed a remove curse pot faster than you could possibly find the spell on your hotbar (slight exaggeration maybe).

on the other side you will probably be disappointed because if i level a healer you will most likely not see me handing out the stuff (there are exceptions as i already said in a previous post).

one question:
you (personally) as someone that actually played a/some healers already: do you carry those pots/wands on your melees? and if yes, do you "wait and see" or ask for removal if a healer is around? or do you just gulp a pot and move on?

It depends. I pick up pots and wands as often as I can afford them and/or are available to me. (My melee bard with maxed UMD/level obviously has more access to wanding solutions than my fighter.) I don't always have the most platinum ever, I also try to contribute as much as I can to things like airship amenities for the guild ship (which I do offer invites to should puggers not have their own.)

I don't gulp one every single time I get hit, no. There's often no reason to, and that would get expensive rather fast.

If it's an instance where there's a lot, or even a stupidly large amount of shrines (yes, they do exist), I'll either wait to see what the healer does (if it's an obviously visible buff like most curses), or call out if it's a bad but not visible status ailment and let them decide what to do about it. If they do nothing after giving them ample time to respond (I'm not going to complain until there's been multiple breaks in the action, keeping the intimitank up is more important than lifting my curse), I'll then directly, but politely, ask them for a cure. Again, remember, this is in an instance where there's plenty of shrines and the healer has no shortage of mana.

If it's a mana-starved instance, I'll pot/wand if available as long as my supply holds out. After that's depleted, I'll ask if I get hit by something bad. Like say, 10 pts. of str damage on a melee. Or heavy wisdom damage when wis is my dump stat. (Because we all know what happens at 0.)

The reason I said "feel free to avoid" me, is to point out the freedom in the system. I'm free to have my own opinion on what healers should or shouldn't have to do in a given situation. You're free to agree, or disagree, and avoid me IF my opinions have a negative impact on your gameplay. Just don't tell me what I can and can't expect, as in

i don't tell you how you play your char. if you feel like removing everything from the whole party, be my guest but don't expect the same from other with the cleric/fvs symbol (dedicated or not).

[blitzschlag]

so what is the part you play as cleric?

you buff and go afk ? or insult people because they could buy wands and pots to buff themself

you dont want to heal, you dont want to help a debuff team mate, so what do you do ?

idd all those things could be done by the player himself, but i don see the point of being rude, useless and proud of it.


if the guy ask politely for help, there is no reason to act that bad. i always carry what i should (but again as some people stated this is because i have been playing for long and have insane amout of money to waste) but if i have a debuff i will ask help to the cleric first. And if he is like you, i ll use my pot and keep looking at his never ending mana bar he never uses.... and feel bad for him to be such useless....

you might not know it but there are no roles carved in stone in ddo. so the guy you think of as a "healer" could well be a melee char or a pure offensive caster that just occasionally throws a heal or a buff (not many usefull buffs from a cleric/fvs anyway).

tbh, the op overdid a bit but pointing out that there are pots/wands and its generally good to be self sufficient to a certain degree is not acting bad.

[Maugrim101]

When all is said and done, I tend to find that when a Cleric/Fvs takes on the responsibility of curing a group of whatever pops up in a PUG, there's a lot less drama.

Some players are up for it, some aren't. For those who aren't, they often find themselves bemoaning the state of PUGs.

A lot of people try and take their mindset of static group gameplay (Or guild runs) into PUGs, expecting the same player knowledge/ability/consideration from random strangers.

PUG life is a world apart from running with people you know and generally each class is expected to perform to a particular sterotype. We can argue until we're blue in the face about the rights and wrongs of it, but that is the reality.

[blitzschlag]

The reason I said "feel free to avoid" me, is to point out the freedom in the system. I'm free to have my own opinion on what healers should or shouldn't have to do in a given situation. You're free to agree, or disagree, and avoid me IF my opinions have a negative impact on your gameplay. Just don't tell me what I can and can't expect, as in

i just tried to get this point along: don't expect anything from anyone you don't know (most pugs). i don't expect anyone to take care of me and expect noone to take care of themselves.

on a sidenote (and not aimed at you directly):
its not that expensive to have the pots that get you savely to lvl 12+
20 remove curse pots = 16k gold (don't need to be bought in a stack. just buy 5 and refresh when theyre about to deplete)
40 lesser restoration pots = 12k gold (same as curse. non wf barbs should always have some or learn to live with fatigue)
10 remove poison = 8k gold
10 remove disease = 8k gold

thats less than 50k gold. spread on 10+ levels. everyone is able to pull that off.

depending on playstyle its way less or way more.

[CombatLibrarian]

i just tried to get this point along: don't expect anything from anyone you don't know (most pugs). i don't expect anyone to take care of me and expect noone to take care of themselves.

on a sidenote (and not aimed at you directly):
its not that expensive to have the pots that get you savely to lvl 12+
20 remove curse pots = 16k gold (don't need to be bought in a stack. just buy 5 and refresh when theyre about to deplete)
40 lesser restoration pots = 12k gold (same as curse. non wf barbs should always have some or learn to live with fatigue)
10 remove poison = 8k gold
10 remove disease = 8k gold

thats less than 50k gold. spread on 10+ levels. everyone is able to pull that off.

depending on playstyle its way less or way more.

I'll agree with you, again, except for the part where you tell me what to expect. I have expectations based on my own experiences, you have yours. You go on never using cleansing spells (or never using specific ones), and if I encounter you doing it as a declared dedicated healer in an instance where there's a rest shrine every 50 meters, I'll avoid you in the future. If something about my expectations bothers you, well, you have the same freedom.

(On a side note, on say, my melee warchanter bard. I use shield wands and barkskin pots. If there's no intimitank, I hit displacement before every pull that's likely to do significant damage to me. If my health ever drops below 60%, I jump the hell out of melee and heal myself, then jump back in. Yet I've still had healers in this game complain that my bard is "too squishy" when the number of heals they've had to cast on me over a long instance could be counted on my fingers after suffering a mild to moderate industrial accident. In more ways than one, there's more than one side to the "Who's being whiny here?" coin when speaking in general terms.)

[CombatLibrarian]

you might not know it but there are no roles carved in stone in ddo. so the guy you think of as a "healer" could well be a melee char or a pure offensive caster that just occasionally throws a heal or a buff (not many usefull buffs from a cleric/fvs anyway).

tbh, the op overdid a bit but pointing out that there are pots/wands and its generally good to be self sufficient to a certain degree is not acting bad.

This is very true, there are a lot of fun builds you can do based on clerics and fvs, and not all of them are set to be main healers. That said, if I'm on my damage dealing super-juiced-blade-barrier-of-doom evoker fvs, I always tell groups up front that's exactly what I am so they can prepare accordingly, by acquiring another player to be the primary healer. Even then, I've got heals to toss out in an OMGMAHFACEMELTIN emergency.

[blitzschlag]

I'll agree with you, again, except for the part where you tell me what to expect. I have expectations based on my own experiences, you have yours. You go on never using cleansing spells (or never using specific ones), and if I encounter you doing it as a declared dedicated healer in an instance where there's a rest shrine every 50 meters, I'll avoid you in the future. If something about my expectations bothers you, well, you have the same freedom.

still could not figure out where you always get that dedicated healer stuff from.

[CombatLibrarian]

still could not figure out where you always get that dedicated healer stuff from.

Not sure what's ambiguous about the concept. If you join the party as a cleric or fvs, and don't pipe up with "I'm not a healer" or better yet, if you do pipe up with "I'm a healer", then you're a dedicated healer.

If someone isn't set up to be a main healer, if they're say...a melee cleric, or an offensive caster FvS...but still says they're main healer for the run, well, that's a bit of dishonesty on their part. In that situation they should at LEAST say something along the lines of "I'm not really set up to be a main healer, but I'll give it a try if we can't find someone else to do it." (This was my standard line early on with my damage dealing FvS, before she had the spells to justify calling herself an offensive caster. Now I simply open with "Just so you know, I'm not a healer, I'm set up for caster dps.").

[Folonius]

my apologies for attempting to make the meeting a quick one with a brief summary. many of you have run with my healer dargena either on her first life or during this one. i did not fail to relieve his problem (at first). nor did ignore any of my duties as a healer.

i agree with healer preparedness, i routinely stock up on heal scrolls, generally 500 at a time as well as 100 gr restore scrolls and wands of remove curse and lesser restoration. i carry every buff i can and scroll the rest (ie ts). of 100 spots in my inventory, ~half are currently dedicated to supporting the party. it is not a role that i have to play as i have plenty of other characters, but it is a role that i do fulfill to help others learn and enjoy the game.

i do have considerable patience as a player and when you've gotten on my bad side, it took some considerable effort.

sorry for not including all the gory details, i forgot how voracious an appetite some people have for the finer details. suffice it to say, there was much grieving and precious few arcane buffs distributed as a result of not playing nanny.

fyi, no one died, no one else complained, and i was complimented on my patience and performance afterwords. oh yeah, this caster was a tr as well.

I think I see where you are coming from, and it can be annoying to run with people who aren't prepared. While I was leveling up my wizard, at around level 12 I ran wiz king and I wasn't expecting to consitently get mummy rot. I had to keep asking for a cure disease then a remove curse to get rid of it, and it happened 5 times. I personally felt terrible that it kept happening to me. After that, I carry those potions on my wizard and my ranger.

It sounds like this guy in the group was using your healer as a crutch, and if that's the case, I agree with your judgement. If someone isn't going to learn by realizing they are hindering the party, then they need to be told.

[Calebro]

While I was leveling up my wizard, at around level 12 I ran epic wiz king

Really?

[Nexx]

I think I see where you are coming from, and it can be annoying to run with people who aren't prepared. While I was leveling up my wizard, at around level 12 I ran epic wiz king and I wasn't expecting to consitently get mummy rot. I had to keep asking for a cure disease then a remove curse to get rid of it, and it happened 5 times. I personally felt terrible that it kept happening to me. After that, I carry those potions on my wizard and my ranger.

It sounds like this guy in the group was using your healer as a crutch, and if that's the case, I agree with your judgement. If someone isn't going to learn by realizing they are hindering the party, then they need to be told.

That is interesting... how did you manage to run an epic
wiz king at level 12?

Personally, I've learned to deal with being
constantly asked for things such as disease & curse removal
especially since the husband is too lazy to get a disease immunity item.

[PowerOfRaistlin]

I am a primary healer and an offensive casting favored soul.

The offensive spells I carry are the obvious ones (BB, cf, destruction, energy drain)
The healing spells I carry are the obvious ones (Heal, Heal mass, cure crit mass, cure serious mass, healing word )
The buffing spells I carry are the obvious ones (Deathward mass, prot pack mass, fom, poison, truesight, etc)

Party forms, runs, and enters quest. Buffs are given (extended of course), bye bye 20-25% sp. Ok 1800 sp left (only 16 atm). Average fight for said decent party, 2 mass heals. Topping off, not gonna happen, I won't let any 8 con builds drain my valuable sp. Notice party isn't too adapt at picking targets and taking down casters, ok I got it covered, destruction. Average fight, 2 mass heal + 1-2 destruction(s).

Quest is running smoothly now, the party is getting the gist of the quest, we're successfully navigating with minimal difficulty. I've found my balance between healing/offensive with this particular group. Big fight, a few get fatigued including myself. I heal the others then begin using wands to take care of those lagging behind due to fatigue.

Rinse and repeat, oops i missed someone (sorry i'm not omniscient). Said person pipes up asking for the heal spell. Said person gets a lesser resto. Rinse and repeat a few more times and I stop in my tracks and begin typing to explain how to avoid the problem in the future. Said person gets but hurt from not getting exactly what they wanted how they wanted it (though they were getting it as often as i noticed or wasn't busy elsewhere).

Now we're at a guardian and need fire to light the torches. Said person refuses to light them. Well that's alright, we've got handy dandy mephits! I bring some and they get killed. I explain why I'm bringing them and the melees stop attacking them but the caster ignores me and fods most. After exchange of a few nice phrases, the torches are lit by the caster.

Rinse and repeat for the next 2 guardians. Suffice it to say the quest became unpleasant at times because a single person cannot play nanny to 5 others in every single aspect. Suggesting that a certain one tie their own shoes or wipe their own bum was obviously a hanging offense.

Now if only I had been selfish and taken DP first instead of DWM

[CombatLibrarian]

That is interesting... how did you manage to run an epic
wiz king at level 12?

Personally, I've learned to deal with being
constantly asked for things such as disease & curse removal
especially since the husband is too lazy to get a disease immunity item.

Yyyyeh. By the time I'm of level to hit demon sands, I try to at least have a disease immunity item and a poison immunity item ready to go, if not in my primary gear.