Shroud dps - a little perspective

[sirgog]

You count Tharne's goggles as +8 damage per swing.

In fact, against Harry, they are (in a full raid group) +3.667 damage per swing.

This is because Tharne's do not add 8 damage when you fail to overcome fortificaiton (50% of the time), and also they add no damage when you have Harry's aggro.

As Harry has completely random aggro (i.e. he doesn't attack the person doing the most damage), you have aggro 1/12th of the time in a full raid, and so 1/12th of the time you don't get the damage.

As having aggro and failing to overcome fortificaiton are independant events, the final figure is 1/2 x 11/12 x 8 = 3+2/3.

[grodon9999]

this is where this thread breaks down. in epic, rangers get a lot of stick for not having dps ie no FE vs velah

I have her as an FE, many others do as well. I'll swap it for something else when I'm don with that raid.

[sirgog]

I have her as an FE, many others do as well. I'll swap it for something else when I'm don with that raid.

Surely if you want a FE for Epic VON6, you should drop Dragons and take up whatever the Djinni are (Chaotic Outsider probably).

Velah's a joke. Every single failed VON6 Epic I've ever been on has failed on the pillars.

The difference between an 11 pass Velah and a 12 pass one is between zero and one mana potions - the difference between knocking the Djinni and pillar out on the first try and taking two is a lot more.

[Aranticus]

I have her as an FE, many others do as well. I'll swap it for something else when I'm don with that raid.

which is where a lot of newer players fail. they do not see how things like this can affect the performance of their characters

[Aranticus]

Surely if you want a FE for Epic VON6, you should drop Dragons and take up whatever the Djinni are (Chaotic Outsider probably).

Velah's a joke. Every single failed VON6 Epic I've ever been on has failed on the pillars.

The difference between an 11 pass Velah and a 12 pass one is between zero and one mana potions - the difference between knocking the Djinni and pillar out on the first try and taking two is a lot more.

every single fail von6 i see is almost always due to the healer not standing far enough for chain lightning to miss or to have quicken on

[sirgog]

every single fail von6 i see is almost always due to the healer not standing far enough for chain lightning to miss or to have quicken on

That's one more DPS can't fix. One that can be fixed with more DPS is the fails that happen when Fascinated trash around the djinni are woken up by melee attacks that are aimed at the djinn. Higher DPS here on either the Djinn or the pillars reduces the time these mobs have to kill you (assuming that your base is the last to get them down, that's usually the case when something is going wrong on a base).

[emptysands]

which is where a lot of newer players fail. they do not see how things like this can affect the performance of their characters

Exactly why dps doesnt really matter in eVON6. Team work and know your role is much more important.

It generally fails because of positioning: i) standing too close to the bridge so fireballs fire they bridge out early - maybe with half the group, ii) hitting fascinated mobs, iii) slow healing on base 2 or iv) lag falls of the bridges.

The main issue with the Djinna is to hit - solved generally by turning off Power Attack.

It often takes longer to kick the pikers into action for north VON5 than to complete eVON6.

All this means that the repetitive nature of loot grind can getting very boring. The one saving grace of DDO at the moment - you aren't stuck only playing class stereotypes. Healers can contribute as DPS, etc.

[Aranticus]

Exactly why dps doesnt really matter in eVON6. Team work and know your role is much more important.

It generally fails because of positioning: i) standing too close to the bridge so fireballs fire they bridge out early - maybe with half the group, ii) hitting fascinated mobs, iii) slow healing on base 2 or iv) lag falls of the bridges.

not really true. consider that if your group is competent in tactics, then dps is the next thing that stands next that determines pass or fail. take tod part 3 for example. a low dps group will require all to have boots. a high dps group can afford to go with only a few booted players. in other context, take abbot as an example. the faster you can take abbot to the various numbers, the faster u get to the puzzles. of coz you can fail the puzzle and then say you need teamwork, etc but the basis of this game is still if you need to take a boss down, dps is still needed

The main issue with the Djinna is to hit - solved generally by turning off Power Attack.

numbers?

[emptysands]

not really true. consider that if your group is competent in tactics, then dps is the next thing that stands next that determines pass or fail. take tod part 3 for example. a low dps group will require all to have boots. a high dps group can afford to go with only a few booted players. in other context, take abbot as an example. the faster you can take abbot to the various numbers, the faster u get to the puzzles. of coz you can fail the puzzle and then say you need teamwork, etc but the basis of this game is still if you need to take a boss down, dps is still needed

Isn't DDO great? Many different ways to play the same game.

numbers?

I roughly know buffed and with Power Attack on and no sneak attack bonus my Tempest dwarf has a to hit of about 52-54 with gs khopesh. I noted misses on 5-7. I only got tharnes (after 28 completes) recently and haven't checked the difference. Since PA adds only 5 damage (for dwarf) vs maybe 50-200 loss per miss I generally turn Power Attack off. Then turn it back on for the dragon.

[Aaxeyu]

Im confused here, are you saying that rangers cannot go into endgame epic content? The reason im not going into endgame stuff is because of not having the gear, being 28point build, and being a new and inexperianced player. I did not realise that just being a ranger is going to exclued you from this. I was actually hoping to TR and play a ranger, and hopefully if I had the gear to give end game stuff a go.

Now, what you do with your ranger is completely up to you and doesn't concern me the slightest.

All I'm saying is that if you want to play a DPS character, ranger is not a very good choice. That is not the same as saying "if you are looking for a DPS, don't take rangers as you won't be able to complete the quest". You never need a perfect party or a perfect character, but that doesn't change the fact that for some purposes some classes are better than others. Why is it so wrong to point that out? Why does it upset you so much?

[moops]

every single fail von6 i see is almost always due to the healer not standing far enough for chain lightning to miss or to have quicken on

Mine are:
OOPS-I didnt mean to use Lightingng strike/uber guards/ Auto Attack. .. If I had a dollar for how may times things were going perfectly untill one of htese things happened. . .I could buy a ton of tasty ham!!!!

While we don't fail, sometimes we will recall rather than have it get expensive in both time and resources in pugs.

[grodon9999]

Surely if you want a FE for Epic VON6, you should drop Dragons and take up whatever the Djinni are (Chaotic Outsider probably).

Velah's a joke. Every single failed VON6 Epic I've ever been on has failed on the pillars.

The difference between an 11 pass Velah and a 12 pass one is between zero and one mana potions - the difference between knocking the Djinni and pillar out on the first try and taking two is a lot more.

The Djinn's are no problem, Improve Destruct and then hit them on a 2*with PA on.



*Maybe not on a 2, but I don't see a lot of misses.

[grodon9999]

which is where a lot of newer players fail. they do not see how things like this can affect the performance of their characters

I dropped Elemental, big friggin deal. I guess that gimped my character.

Evil Outsider, Undead, Giant, Dragon - covers every raid-boss in the game. It's not like feat swaps are a big deal either, when something comes along that requires one FE over the other switching isn't a problem.

[grodon9999]

Now, what you do with your ranger is completely up to you and doesn't concern me the slightest.

All I'm saying is that if you want to play a DPS character, ranger is not a very good choice. That is not the same as saying "if you are looking for a DPS, don't take rangers as you won't be able to complete the quest". You never need a perfect party or a perfect character, but that doesn't change the fact that for some purposes some classes are better than others. Why is it so wrong to point that out? Why does it upset you so much?

It's the tone, some of us Americans are over-sensitive to your bluntness. I'm from the NYC area and appreciate it myself.

Had you said "ranger is not the best choice for a max-DPS character," which I absolutely agree with, nobody's feathers would have been ruffled. But then again we wouldn't have had this great academic discussion and I'd actually have to work during my workday and not troll the forums.

Another problem is people less knowledgeable about the game see statements like yours and take them to the nth degree. They don't understand that while fighters/rangers/barbs have higher DPS potential that rangers, rangers can still deal excellent damage. As a result they leave rangers off of LFMs out of ignorance.

Your own numbers show maxed it's within 25% of a maxed-fighter, I believe your numbers and your DPS calc and have faith in its accuracy. What % of toons out there are actually maxxed? It's gotta be less than 5% especially with all of us mooks who joined in 09/10 now being the majority. Sweyn's ranger is the closest I've seen to a maxed-ranger and probably wipes the floor with most of the capped fighters out there. My own ranger has stolen aggro from fighter and barb "hate-tanks" on numerous occasions. There are also many fighters/barbs on my server that I know beat my ass badly in DPS.

It's not as simple the class.

[fuzzy1guy]

I don't hate rangers for their DPS... They're pretty good at that.

But i DO hate rangers because of all the ranged rangers i've encountered. Agro things they can't deal with. Agro things far up ahead before we're ready. Don't know when the hell to stop shooting. Don't know when to turn of ips so they DON'T shoot all the leutenants in a row so we can't pull them apart. Rangers who seem to have no clue about agro managment. Don't know when to put the damm bow away and pull out some swords. Rangers who dont pass out their resists saving the casters and healers some sp. Rangers who cast that dammed useless camo that just ticks me off for some reason.

For all that and because its such a random luck thing finding one of the few good rangers.

Rangers are deny by default.

It's not so much the toon itself.. It's the style of player that seems to favor rangers.

If you're not one of those. I'm sorry you share a class with so many ijits. But you're still deny by default.

[Gunga]

It's the tone.

I like his tone.

I also think he's right. If you're building for DPS, ranger isn't the best choice.

Ranger is the DDO easy button class and they generally disgust me for it.

My goto DPS goes like this:

1. BARBARIAN
2. FIGHTER
3. PALADIN
4. MONK
5. RANGER
6. ROGUE

This may upset you. Bring it on.

[grodon9999]

I like his tone.

I also think he's right. If you're building for DPS, ranger isn't the best choice.

Ranger is the DDO easy button class and they generally disgust me for it.

My goto DPS goes like this:

1. BARBARIAN
2. FIGHTER
3. PALADIN
4. MONK
5. RANGER
6. ROGUE

This may upset you. Bring it on.

WF caster is the biggest easy-button in the game. Pretty much anything in this game that can heal itself while tossing out a bunch of damage is the easy-button. Mine solos Amrath quests on hard, FvS and WF casters solo epics.

Rangers are the diet-Coke of easy-button.

Dark-monks need to be higher in your list as long as they can double and triple-strike that donkey-punch.

[Noctus]

Inter-cultural learnings to make benefit glorious community of DDO: ... (yeah, yeah, slightly off topic)

It's the tone, some of us Americans are over-sensitive to your bluntness. I'm from the NYC area and appreciate it myself.

There are not really many cultural differences when you cross the big pond. Much less than say when you drive just over the border to the "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" It is just conversational style. But this is one of the "biggest" cultural differences between The States and Germany. Not in spite of, but precisely because it is so subtle.

* Not being direct to the point and honest is considered bad style in Germany.

* Not trying to politely sugarcoating "unpleasant for the other side" statements is considered bad style in the US. Even up to the concept of "little white lie" (which is unknown in germany - and even will make people upset at you if they found out as you are being untruthful).




For example recently i read an essay from an american professor of finance and he kept interjecting his statements with "i thing" , "in my opinion", "it should be", "most probably". I was just about to dismiss his paper from my relevant-works-stack as he obviously himself wasnt even really sure of his own conclusions, when i remembered that americans always like to cushion everything up. And as he was holding a minority view he went with extra cushioning topping.

His position has merit, yet i almost dismissed it because he wasnt direct to the point and he was relativizeing his statements, instead of saying them "boldly", even as many people on the conference held another opinion.

Germany 4


This segment portrays two of the most common problems that arise when Americans and Germans negotiate. (1) According to Germans, Americans tend to deliver “hype” rather than the data and details the Germans want. From the American point of view, if the customer needs great detail, it will be delivered when they ask for it. (2) German bluntness offends Americans, “This has been a waste of our time.” From the German point of view they are just delivering an honest and accurate evaluation – no “cushioning” is involved in the German, low context style of communication. Americans use conversational cushioning and expect it to be used, even by Germans. This conflict in conversational style can cause great friction in otherwise cooperative business negotiations across the Atlantic.

The lesson here is two-fold – “don’t expect diplomacy” and “deliver details and data.” Try to appreciate German frankness.[1] It is efficient. The key here is to back up all claims with data and references. Expect the German customers to ask for much more information than typically required in the States. For example, if you make a claim about your market share, show them the data you used to calculate it.

[1] Checking the dictionary for the derivation of the word “frank” is quite interesting – apparently bluntness is an historical, cultural trait for Germans.

[grodon9999]

I don't hate rangers for their DPS... They're pretty good at that.

But i DO hate rangers because of all the ranged rangers i've encountered. Agro things they can't deal with. Agro things far up ahead before we're ready. Don't know when the hell to stop shooting. Don't know when to turn of ips so they DON'T shoot all the leutenants in a row so we can't pull them apart. Rangers who seem to have no clue about agro managment. Don't know when to put the damm bow away and pull out some swords. Rangers who dont pass out their resists saving the casters and healers some sp. Rangers who cast that dammed useless camo that just ticks me off for some reason.

For all that and because its such a random luck thing finding one of the few good rangers.

Rangers are deny by default.

It's not so much the toon itself.. It's the style of player that seems to favor rangers.

If you're not one of those. I'm sorry you share a class with so many ijits. But you're still deny by default.

You need to think a little on that. If he's a dwarf with a fighter level odds are he's not an archer. It was a pain in the balls getting in pugs on my Monster build at lower-level because of people like you. Gee, here's a dwarf wearing Mithril full-plate and carry two axes, he might be an archer so let's not let him in . . .

[Thrudh]

the problem is, dps isnt that important vs trash

DPS isn't that important vs bosses either, once you get to a certain point...

1 round in Part 4 is 1 round... makes no difference if it takes 65 seconds or 55 seconds.

Good DPS is important... max DPS is not.