Cultural differences

[westudi]

If you guys want to play like that thats cool as long as you dont put others that dont want to play that way through that or have u run the quest for them, ie by making it clear you are zerging in an lfm because otherwise its just ignorant. Really if you can zerg ahead like that you know you dont need to party as with dungeon scaling you could easily do it solo without annoying anyone. That also makes me wonder why, if you are feeling rushed and impatient, you then party at all (apart from the few quests that require multiple players for switches).

Easy answer: to up the difficulty on low-level quests without having to run it multiple times. If I can get someone to open the Korthos island quests on elite, I am only running those darn things once to be sure.

Again, if you can't keep yourself alive while zerging, you shouldn't do it. Even when I am not zerging, I have no issue with people who do so as long as they follow that rule. I honestly don't see a valid argument against it if that rule is adhered to.

Those that complain about zerging are being as selfish as those that zerg. It's still a matter of trying to control the pace of the group.

[joneb1999]

You dont need to party to up the quest level. Simply you just have to get someone to join you long enough with elite open for you to go in. Also its selfish to zerg if the people in the party joined not knowing you were doing that and actually were trying to experience the quest for the first time or learn it for themself or even participate instead of being left in your smoke to get quarter of the way through for you to have it finished.

Then what about the dungeon alarm going off and catching them out? You may be able to deal with it but they may not. If you want ito zerg fine but imo do it with a zerging party thats perfectly aware and dont take others with you not aware especially if you want to use them to open elite, then you run off and leave them and they dont get to experience the quest for themself.

You may say the person can drop but by then you have used that person and wasted that persons valuable time.

[Thargnar]

This is an interesting post, mainly because I see a difference in attitude myself between those of us homing out of different hemispheres. From across the pond I seem to notice a larger percentage of polite, or at least non-abrasive, voice users. More amiable chatting, less typing, less WHARBARGLE YOU R TEH NOOBEH!1!! If I was to make a snap judgement I would say that euro players tend toward more civil discourse.

The interesting thing is that I don't think the numbers would necessarily bear that up, I'm sure the boorish plick to pleasant fellow ratio is the same here or over there, well, relatively close, we didn't pick up the stereotype of the vulgar American without *some* cause, but you take my point I'm sure. I think one thing that skews the ratio in my mind is actually the accent, everything sounds more civil, or interesting even, with an accent to us Americans, especially British accents, but really any well spoken english with a European accent. I think it's because Europe, and specifically England for most of us, was the cultural cradle from which we sprang. The only accents we have here are things like the southern drawl, the midwestern nothing, the New York ***you! I'm walkin here!, and etc, none of which scream out erudition to most of us. While conversely all it takes is a guy with some horn rim glasses and a British accent to make us think, hey, there's a schmott guy, I should probably pay attention. Accent should have no perceived bearing on whether we think the words coming out of a person's mouth are more or less worthy of paying attention to, but for many of us it does regardless, even if at an unconscious level.

So I guess what I'm saying is that yes, I see a culturally, or at least geographically, based difference between the two server populations, but I honestly can't tell whether it's because it exists, or I simply pay more attention when I hear a nifty accent thus remembering it where I normally wouldn't, and erroneously ascribe the higher percentage of pleasant euros I seem to come across to an inherently more civil population.

As to the zerging, yeah, we do that. In the small guild I run with zerging is a way of life from level 1 to whenever you hit Amrath, because everything up to that point is pretty mind numbingly easy and has been repeated ad infinitum. Amrath and beyond still has zerging of course, but for survival purposes (soulstones zerg nowhere) there is a certain group unity to it that doesn't usually exist up till that point. Unless of course you are Cardinal, whose motto is 'I have two reasons to never stop moving, Blade, and Barrier'.

Most of us in guild play the game primarily as a way to get together from the four corners of the US we have scattered to and BS while mindlessly killing anything that walks, crawls, swims, or flies. With the mainly static content of the quests the game has become more about character builds for most of us, which need to be approaching 20 for the real strengths or weaknesses of the build to become apparent, so I imagine from the outside to most it does seem like a race to 20 may be the purpose of the way we play the game, but I think that is merely a side effect of a character builder wondering what his baby is gonna look like once it's all grown up. Perhaps this is just us as most of our guild have played since beta and the newness has long worn off, but it is one reason that to someone hopping into a group with us at low level they may think our motto is 'The Zerg is The Life'. The other reason they might think that is because that actually is our motto

[phillymiket]

I do find Euro players quite polite and good players as well.

Not that American players are not. I find most players are fun to group with.

It's just those few that aren't always stick out in my mind. One player who is rude or playing against the "style" the party is running with can change the whole flavor of a quest. A particularly nasty disagreement between players will cause everyone to clam up and all you hear is the nastiness. "One rotten apple" and all that.

I'm quite happy my guild has a nice spread of Americans and European players. It makes a great mix of personality, playstyle (and playtimes)

Oh, and Australian players! Why are they so darn good at this game? It seems that whenever there is an Australian (or New Zealander - I have a hard time hearing the difference in accent) in the party the quest will be fun and successful.

I'm quite happy for the influx of new players from Europe here on Ghallanda.
I'd love to see more both on the server and in guild.

As for zerging...to each his own I guess. I like to play Dungeons and Dragons myself. Stick together as a party. Face challenges together. Have fun. Smell the roses (check them for traps first though).

[bloodyrag]

all casters must give the axer package at the start of each and every quest

[Jontas]

Casual player coming from EU, and joining the occasional LFM there, and here, I have come to one observation, that may sum up several of your experiences:
AGE.

The average age of the people on LFMs on Ghallanda seems about half what it was in EU...

In EU, for some reason (lack of advertising? Original P&P players returning as online game with no new influx?), we had very few humans below the age of maybe 25... and a vast majority over 30. We had PUGs compromised entirely of people beyond 35.

In the US the few times I have PUGged (maybe 5-6 times, one was with polite and mature players, and the rest was with youngsters who need to prove how cool they are. That may be due to the time difference: our Euro evenings (when we working class people play) is your US afternoons (school kid time)...

Can someone confirm/dispel my theories?

[AyumiAmakusa]

I think one thing that skews the ratio in my mind is actually the accent, everything sounds more civil, or interesting even, with an accent to us Americans, especially British accents, but really any well spoken english with a European accent.

Omg HAHAHA. That is so true. You can swear with an English/European accent and I'll still think you're being polite!

[DrenglisEU]

Casual player coming from EU, and joining the occasional LFM there, and here, I have come to one observation, that may sum up several of your experiences:
AGE.

The average age of the people on LFMs on Ghallanda seems about half what it was in EU...

In EU, for some reason (lack of advertising? Original P&P players returning as online game with no new influx?), we had very few humans below the age of maybe 25... and a vast majority over 30. We had PUGs compromised entirely of people beyond 35.

In the US the few times I have PUGged (maybe 5-6 times, one was with polite and mature players, and the rest was with youngsters who need to prove how cool they are. That may be due to the time difference: our Euro evenings (when we working class people play) is your US afternoons (school kid time)...

Can someone confirm/dispel my theories?

Mate, I would say your assumtions are correct! A few years ago I run with a party back in Keeper where I was the only one over 14..... and yes I',almost 40! I was basically pulling the kindergarden behind me, it wasn't all that bad except their voice chat was terrible and I had to tell a few times shut the piiip up and clean it!

I'm the same, casual, play when I can... 15 min to an hour or 2 here and there, but have noticed also the age demography is quite different. Take EU and slash by 2 sounds mostly correct. We ones even had a shroud-train where the only requirement was age 35+ and the group filled fast :-) (or is this good????)

[Nataichal]

As an American who has been here since the beginning, with periods of power gaming and not, I feel that there are several valid questions to address in this thread.

First, to get it out of the way, and because it will act as a lead in, is the question of age. Two years ago, under the pay to play model, with children often not present or under the watchful eye of a gamer parent, the annoying youngster was a rarity, both on Fernia before its demise, and later on Ghallanda. Oftentimes, they were so few that their names were known throughout the servers, and generally were avoided by members of the established and consolidated guilds. It has only been with the release of F2P content that the riff raff have come through the door with their DDO equivalent of Halo multiplayer trash talk. Like most diseases, they have run rampant through the ranks of the unprotected; namely, any content under level 10 that might be seen in an LFM list. For these incompetents, and their juvenile bravado, I apologize. However, if such a model had been released in EU, I'm certain Keeper would have been infected by a similar swarm. Tweens are annoying regardless of language or country of origin.

Not all are so afflicted. This brings about the point that I have made a distinction in the population here; namely, that of the F2P masses, with their 6 months of experience leading to omnipotence and unsupported scorn, and that of what I shall term the Old Guard, those that have played for 3 or even 4 years. When considering the attitudes, play styles, average age, and competence of the US players, it is unfair to make any judgments without making this separation.

To evaluate the attitudes and actions of US players, you must take them into context. A member of the Old Guard typically has hundreds to thousands of hours of gameplay logged, during which time they honed their skills in the game and generally learned how to master its mechanics while congregating with other similar players. Competence is generally assumed by simple reputation; there are several guilds on the server which I have certain expectations of quality from their members.


It is here that the 'zerger' distinction must be made. An Old Guard is by definition a veteran of nearly every corner of the game, of the strengths, weaknesses, and limitations of their play ability and character builds, and due to countless nights spent in worship of 'the Grind', know how hard they can reasonably push. Dying, either by oneself or by a party member, is a time wasting hindrance, and thus avoided. They will support those that are with them, provided they show a general level of competence and willingness to listen, even if that support is by leading the way. Wasted time, however, is generally avoided, such as in the instance of unneeded or self completed buffing. If this becomes a factor due to gross incompetence or attitude of another, such as those spawning the complaints here, well, it is sometimes easier to cut your losses and press forward with a stone in your pocket. It is with this mindset in mind that the negative connotation associated with the term 'zerger' I feel is unfairly applied to these.

The "zerger" is a less mature, and often less experienced, frame of mind. These tend to be the folks who might be in a party of 6, but in reality are playing alone. They are indifferent as to the fate of their party members, even to the point of being caustic towards those killed by circumstances created by the zerger's own actions. If they made it through the door, it does not matter if the bodies of their 5 party members are left behind in the red alert of hell they orchestrated. Much as the rest of the more repugnant behaviors, I have seen a sharp increase in these in the past year, often stemming from those 'I've played since F2P opened and I know all' individuals. It is generally these who snarlingly try to lecture those in parties or raids with them, often (unbeknownst to them) to members of the Old Guard who have lost more XP to level 10/12/14/16 level caps than they have ever earned.

Old Guard members are older, since they have been capable of forking out the $15 monthly fee for years, and those with horrendous attitudes were typically culled from the herd years ago. Thus, they congregate in a few guilds with members that rarely venture out into the land of the PUG, as they know their fellow guildmates are not only competent, but also generally friendly. As they initially developed their characters, account character limits and smaller server populations helped keep people accountable for their actions. The community was not so large that periods of ******baggery could be easily lost in the crowd. Now, new players are younger, more impulsive, less bound by investment and public opinion, and more easily lost in anonymity than before.

As it is 3 AM and I am starting to lose my train of thought, I will summarize with this. The polite, older population you remember from Keeper exists, we just tend to keep to our guilds, as we are as repulsed by the teeny boppers as you. If someone rushes off in front, don't concern yourself with them. Either they know what they're doing and are ultimately making the run easier for you (so keep up) or they're cannon fodder anyways and are doing you a favor of identification by rushing off to their deaths. Either way, they have made the choice to be deprived of your buffs and aid, so don't chase after them or concern yourself with their well being if they push too hard.

And the death penalty needs to come back to teach some morons how to play, and how to heal.

[DrenglisEU]

Just to make my point clear, the little I been in G-land I have PUG:d with nice & skillfull US players so I am not generalizing! But the amount of youngsters with WoW in their backbag is much bigger than back in Eubie. And as stated the main reason is F2P, nothing bad with it! Keeps the best game I know alive. And until our boat lands, I will be 100% PUGging

[westudi]

You dont need to party to up the quest level. Simply you just have to get someone to join you long enough with elite open for you to go in. Also its selfish to zerg if the people in the party joined not knowing you were doing that and actually were trying to experience the quest for the first time or learn it for themself or even participate instead of being left in your smoke to get quarter of the way through for you to have it finished.

Then what about the dungeon alarm going off and catching them out? You may be able to deal with it but they may not. If you want ito zerg fine but imo do it with a zerging party thats perfectly aware and dont take others with you not aware especially if you want to use them to open elite, then you run off and leave them and they dont get to experience the quest for themself.

You may say the person can drop but by then you have used that person and wasted that persons valuable time.

I agree on all counts. Now, please point out to me where I suggested having people join my group just to leave them in the dust? When did I indicate throwing the party under the bus?

If I host a group with zerging in mind, I clearly express that in the LFM. If I join a group, I find out if it will allow for speedy play. If it doesn't, I have two options open to me: slow down, or drop group. I do one of those two depending on the group, and the time I have available to me.

As I said before, the argument against all zerging is still as selfish as those that would zerg everything. It's simply a matter of trying to control the pace of the group. Neither side is more right than the other except from the viewpoint of it's supporter.

[joneb1999]

I agree on all counts. Now, please point out to me where I suggested having people join my group just to leave them in the dust? When did I indicate throwing the party under the bus?

If I host a group with zerging in mind, I clearly express that in the LFM. If I join a group, I find out if it will allow for speedy play. If it doesn't, I have two options open to me: slow down, or drop group. I do one of those two depending on the group, and the time I have available to me.

As I said before, the argument against all zerging is still as selfish as those that would zerg everything. It's simply a matter of trying to control the pace of the group. Neither side is more right than the other except from the viewpoint of it's supporter.

Sorry to offend dude buts I was just meaning that if anyone uses a party to just open elite then run off or zerg when the others arent aware of it its bad . I just put it badly as it was a reply to you and it sounded like I was attacking you. I 100% agreee with your comment its about controlling the pace of the group in any party to what has been agreed beforehand.

[Daliyn]

Omg HAHAHA. That is so true. You can swear with an English/European accent and I'll still think you're being polite!

lol, if I only knew that a bit sooner

[westudi]

Sorry to offend dude buts I was just meaning that if anyone uses a party to just open elite then run off or zerg when the others arent aware of it its bad . I just put it badly as it was a reply to you and it sounded like I was attacking you. I 100% agreee with your comment its about controlling the pace of the group in any party to what has been agreed beforehand.

Cool, cool.

[elkorm]

Didn't PUG at all since we moved to Ghallanda, cos my play schedule is a bit tight at the moment.
Regarding "speed of play", I guess it all comes down to style. I am a rush-it-fastah type of player, but I like to do it while saying inconsequential things over voice and generally banter :P
As for buffing, I am a firm believer in buffing to the eyeballs, but that's just me. I have seen on Thelanis (played there a few months) some people see buffing as a waste of their spell points, which I think might be a valid argument if we were all soloist and not trying to achieve a group win.
That said everyone is entitled to his/her own style of play but remember....you always have to indulge the healer :P

Cheers
Elk

[petegunn]

Think on it like this , ddo Europa was a small village, now we're over here playing ddo USA, a hustling bustling vibrant city with a life and personality all of its own. Where theres more diverse clients to group with, you'll bump into people who don't necessarily fit into your style of play or expectations.

[DrenglisEU]

Think on it like this , ddo Europa was a small village, now we're over here playing ddo USA, a hustling bustling vibrant city with a life and personality all of its own. Where theres more diverse clients to group with, you'll bump into people who don't necessarily fit into your style of play or expectations.

/Signed