Doom for the heavy multiclassed warchanter?

[Junts]

Im sry i meant the chosen Barb PL feat justifies the 2 Barb splash in my eyes. MUCH longer rages and +8 str and con from ur base rages. For 2 levels it stacks up. Without the Past life or if it is fixed not so much.

For two barb levels in ur build WITH the chosen past life feat as it works currently and warchanter I and the FB setup from tod u get:

4 rages lasting 4 mins (approx) giving +8 str and con - 4 to hit 6 dmg and
10% increased run speed.
1 more PA enhancement. so 2 damage for a 2 handed.

So effectively im getting

+3 to hit
+8 damage
10% run speed
+80 hp

For 2 level investments. Seems like a good deal to me atm. Again if they fix the PL then im not such a fan anymore. If im not touching on anything you guys were discussing apologies - im more talking about a 2 barb splash in general.

N

I'd agree thats not too bad, though it brings up two questions
1: is it intended?
and
2: fitting in the feat, though that's not that hard to do

Personally, I'd prefer bards able to throw displacements and emergency scrolls, a lot of fights really favor that kind of flexibility, but it may just be that I did an elite tod today and you know how good those kind of abilities are when you're flying through the air every 20s.

[Nick_RC]

Something worth considering even if it is idle speculation and doesnt apply right now... the way eladrin seems to have described half orcs points at their enhancemetns giving bonuses/augmenting/granting rages. Could be cool for the 2 barb splashes also. Either way it looks like fun times for bards come U7.

N

[Nick_RC]

I'd agree thats not too bad, though it brings up two questions
1: is it intended?
and
2: fitting in the feat, though that's not that hard to do

Personally, I'd prefer bards able to throw displacements and emergency scrolls, a lot of fights really favor that kind of flexibility, but it may just be that I did an elite tod today and you know how good those kind of abilities are when you're flying through the air every 20s.

Heh thats just it

1. I really dont think it was intended personally. But given the feedback on the chosen Barb PL (I.E its next to useless without this 'hidden' effect) and ample time to 'fix it' im hoping that its here to stay. Doubt they will come out and say that tho.

2. Not difficult for a 2 handed build with no glancing blows whilst moving - even if they do change it im not sure id take them anyway with nothing to boost the proc rate apart from a bugged WF aptitude line.

Honestly theres nothing stopping you from doing what you described. Dispellling a rage and hiting support mode is one click away when **** hits the fan. At the end of the day its a two level character split - u still have 18 full levels to support/fight away with.

N

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I'd agree thats not too bad, though it brings up two questions
1: is it intended?
and
2: fitting in the feat, though that's not that hard to do

Personally, I'd prefer bards able to throw displacements and emergency scrolls, a lot of fights really favor that kind of flexibility, but it may just be that I did an elite tod today and you know how good those kind of abilities are when you're flying through the air every 20s.

Nice back pedal. Nick does a good job describing some of the benefits of the barb splash, so your idea of barb = "bad bad bad" is uninformed and bordering preposterous. To hit, damage, run speed, and hp are four pretty good reasons that counter your version of the only good way to build a bard.

Nothing wrong with a fighter/rogue split, but a fighter/barb is a very worthy split, and is more powerful at character launch, which makes it a great split for the newer player, or veteran who does not like the fighting style of "wait and hit" thats required of the rogue split.

[Kintro]

Well my personal opinion implies I gimped myself come update 7 with my 14 bard/4fighter/2 barbarian bardbarian as a f2p, I figure as well that VIPS can LR/TR anyway, so this post may not be suitable at all. But given the spoilers come update 7 of full bard PrE's, guess the new min-max bard route would be 18 bard / 2 rogue and/or 20 bard?

Discuss.

I wouldn't worry just yet, we don't even know if tier 3 is coming in update 7. If the previous PrE release is anything to go by we'll be getting lots more to tier 2 first.

The only thing that indicates tier 3 is the features list includes Shintao Monk which is already tier 2. Though they may have mistakenly put Shintao when they meant Henshin.

[Nick_RC]

Nice back pedal. Nick does a good job describing some of the benefits of the barb splash, so your idea of barb = "bad bad bad" is uninformed and bordering preposterous. To hit, damage, run speed, and hp are four pretty good reasons that counter your version of the only good way to build a bard.

Nothing wrong with a fighter/rogue split, but a fighter/barb is a very worthy split, and is more powerful at character launch, which makes it a great split for the newer player, or veteran who does not like the fighting style of "wait and hit" thats required of the rogue split.

Thing is the barb past life effectively doubles the effectivess of the 2 level split. While it's ok without it the PL really makes it shine in my eyes. That +8 str puts u in the range of viable stunning blow dc's with weighted 10 weapons. U sorta need that as well as being fully tweaked out equipment wise to make this option viable.

In my eyes the 2 split is gold WITH the PL as it stands right now. Without it it's viable and up for comparison with other splits.

N

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Thing is the barb past life effectively doubles the effectivess of the 2 level split. While it's ok without it the PL really makes it shine in my eyes. That +8 str puts u in the range of viable stunning blow dc's with weighted 10 weapons. U sorta need that as well as being fully tweaked out equipment wise to make this option viable.

In my eyes the 2 split is gold WITH the PL as it stands right now. Without it it's viable and up for comparison with other splits.

N

Yes, but speed running through a bunch of past lives on toons you dont enjoy playing to make a toon you DO enjoy playing is too much redundancy for my tastes. I simply do not have the time to invest. I'd much rather build the best possible toon the 1st time.

However, if TRing is your goal for your warchanter, then sure, what you propose is a fantastic, perfect synergy. I can easily recommend it. I disagree however, that you need the past life to make it work, it is simply not the case, in my experience so far. To-hit and damage is quite plentiful. It's never a problem.

Either as a TR or not however, the 16/2/2 splits are here to stay. The bard/fighter/barb is a very fun and effective path to pursue, for those who understand the synergies of a warchanter bard/barb combo (and how to best utilize it's speed and power).

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Either way it looks like fun times for bards come U7.

Now that I can whole-heartedly agree!

[ColinQ]

I was looking thru the PAX video, but cant find any reference to 3rd tier PrE
Did I just failed my spot and listen check? can some one point me to the right please where it was mentioned. ie. approx which min/sec of that video

[Pugsley]

Well my personal opinion implies I gimped myself come update 7 with my 14 bard/4fighter/2 barbarian bardbarian as a f2p, I figure as well that VIPS can LR/TR anyway, so this post may not be suitable at all. But given the spoilers come update 7 of full bard PrE's, guess the new min-max bard route would be 18 bard / 2 rogue and/or 20 bard?

Discuss.

Please people, if you reference something obscure you read somewhere, please link to it so we know what you are talking about. These forums are big.

[khaldan]

From here, it appears that half elves may get something that allows them to do something called Dilettante, which allows you to get a feature from another class, without actually taking a level in that class. 18/2 bard/fight/dill barb with PL:barb maybe?

Editing for a better explanation: Most of the warchanter bards I see go human, so by going half elf we're down a feat, thus the 2 fighter. In theory, Dilettante will let you get a feature from another class, in this case barbarian. We take it and the PL:barb, and grab most of the good stuff from barbarian, get warchanter 3, and hopefully have enough feats for everything.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

From here, it appears that half elves may get something that allows them to do something called Dilettante, which allows you to get a feature from another class, without actually taking a level in that class. 18/2 bard/fight/dill barb with PL:barb maybe?

Very cool, I hadn't seen that. I am all for new options. The more options the better. I like barb and rogue splashes, and feel more options are a huge win for the bard class.

[Cetus]

Well, nick does a great job at convincing the usefulness of the barb levels to maximize a bards dps. However, when I built my battle bard I refrained from touching barb; and instead settled on 4 full fighter levels because of the following:

1. When I'm running epics- I can't afford to have my source of dps and hp also inhibit my ability to either dance an opponent, heal a party member, ddoor, or buff. Sure I can always dismiss the rage, but that is 1 less rage I now have for whatever else I'll be dealing with later.

2. The barbarian levels don't allow the 3 class feats I used to acquire Improved critical, PA, and weapon focus in order to open up potential toughness feats for further hp pool expansion (when chopping away at the epic DQ for instance)

3. Going full 4 fighter levels also unlocks the second tier haste boost, 20% is a great suplement to the feat distribution, not to mention the fighter str tiers and fighter toughness enhancements. Its an all round boost to dps and hp via feats and enhancements without compromising your spellcasting abilities.

Two rogue levels are great, but my bards saves are sufficient to not have to rely on evasion to survive. Fighter 2-4 imo grant more than what rogue 1-2 give outside of evasion.


Just my two cp. =D

[Irinis]

Barb is a weird thing to splash but I find I like it in certain situations. Just relax and pretend you're a REAL melee, be babysat for once after being the versatile "smooth every situation the group faces" character... I've used Barb rage so very rarely but whenever I have, I've LOVED the extra STR and CON. Face it, we Bards are d6 for hp... we need all the help we can get!

[AltheaSteelrain]

Updated OP

2nd tier for bard prestige enhancements and possible tune up for level 1

Source: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...13#post3244913

Discuss

[Nick_RC]

Hey Man how goes the TR's? Got Groan one rank into lvl 19 on my final life for a while - if runnin epics il be around in a week or so to run em. Thought id respond to give you my 2c on the differences between the splits.

Comments in Red.

N

Well, nick does a great job at convincing the usefulness of the barb levels to maximize a bards dps. However, when I built my battle bard I refrained from touching barb; and instead settled on 4 full fighter levels because of the following:

Before replying im looking at specificaly ur ftr 4 vs ftr 2 barb 2 split And obviously onthing personal just thrashing out the nitty gritty.

1. When I'm running epics- I can't afford to have my source of dps and hp also inhibit my ability to either dance an opponent, heal a party member, ddoor, or buff. Sure I can always dismiss the rage, but that is 1 less rage I now have for whatever else I'll be dealing with later.

I think you are overstating the hp and combat dps ftr lvls 3-4 brings. Raging is awesome but compare an unraged 2 barb split vs ftr lvl 3+4 (Assuming the barb variant took 2 lvls of ftr also). U get

Fighters Favor

+6 hit points (costing 2ap - nothings for free!)
Haste Boost II (5% increase over the barb variant for under one minute only)
+1 to hit (Barb Power Attack cancels out Weapons specialisation for a 2 hander - my personal pref for epic running on a bard - I cant seem to get 2wf to high enough values to satisfy me. I quickly MyDDOd ur bard to see what you were playing with so I could make some comparisons. Looks like ur goign 2 handed also.)
Possible +1 to tactics (But without the Barb PL and Barb levels getting ur str up enough to make this viable is unlikey)

Barbs Favor unraged

10% Run speed
5 Sprint boosts

The reason I mention these is there is awesome synergy in high base run speed, Sprint boost, and fascinate. U can use that mobility to avoid attacks (if skulled) or get to where u need to FAST (like hauling ass to a failing base is EV6)

Conclusion

Ftr : +1 to hit, +6 hp, 5% alacrity for under one minute.
Barb : greater Manoueverability.

In my eyes that isnt a "source of hitpoints(6) and DPS" (+1 to hit and 5% alacrity for sub-one min).

Edit: When i saw ur 3 free ftr feats u listed as you used (impr crit PA and WF) it seems ur not taking WS? if you arnt taking WS the unrage barb is doing MORE dps than the 4 ftr split.

2. The barbarian levels don't allow the 3 class feats I used to acquire Improved critical, PA, and weapon focus in order to open up potential toughness feats for further hp pool expansion (when chopping away at the epic DQ for instance)

Firstly 2 barb/2 ftr vs 4 ftr only loses you one feat. Obviously u know this but maybe you were compararing 4 barb? If so no I couldnt recommend anything higher than 2 Barb + Barb PL and 2 ftr lvls for the 4 feat split. Funnily enough you're point on chopping away alludes to Boss fights where only DPS matters. This provides me a good place to launch the Raged Barb vs Ftr comparison.

So assuming similar base stats il do the following comparison (Im going to use WS instead of Toughness uif you dont mind for max dps). If you dont mind i'd like to include the Barb PL feat as that what pertains to my personal build plans - and I guess thats the point of this thread figuring out what split brings what benefits. Also I may as well tell you what my rages look like at a 2 lvl split with the Barb PL - 4 Rages (with FB tod set), lasting aorund 4 mins each giving +8 str/con.

Raged 2 Barb/2ftr vs 4 ftr split - DPS and HP standpoint.

Barb

+ 80hp (Rage)
+4 to hit + 6 (Damage)
-1 to hit +2 Damage (Barb PA)
5x +2 damage boosts for under one minute (situationally engageable good in dq)
+8 str to help vs knockdown ( I think im looking at around 50 str for a wf version giving you a reasonable save vs that knockdown).
One use of uncanny dodge (Minor)

Fighter
+6 hp from ftr tough II
+2 hp from the difference between Barb PL feat and regular tough feat.
+2 Damage WS
+5 % alacrity for under one minute ( I vs II)

Conclusion

Barb has a higher to hit (+3) does more damage a swing (+6 a swing) has more hp (72ish) and boosts will balance out - once u run out of haste boosts and then the barb variant uses dmg boosts.

3. Going full 4 fighter levels also unlocks the second tier haste boost, 20% is a great suplement to the feat distribution, not to mention the fighter str tiers and fighter toughness enhancements. Its an all round boost to dps and hp via feats and enhancements without compromising your spellcasting abilities.

Str tier is attained at lvl 2 the 2/2 split cna benefit from this just as much as the 4 split. Everything else was addressed above.

Two rogue levels are great, but my bards saves are sufficient to not have to rely on evasion to survive. Fighter 2-4 imo grant more than what rogue 1-2 give outside of evasion.

Completely agree with this. Reflex is a primary bard save getting a good score here is easy enough. I think rog synergises well for 2wf btu i dont like two weapon fighting for a bard at epic levels as the numbers and what u have to sacrifice in terms of stat allocation and feats doesnt add up.

Just my two cp. =D

Hey Man how goes the TR's? Got groan one rank into lvl 19 on my final life for a while - if runnin epics il be around in a week or so to run em. Thought id respond to give you my 2c on the differences between the splits.

Comments in Red.

N

[quityourjobs]

Two rogue levels are great, but my bards saves are sufficient to not have to rely on evasion to survive. Fighter 2-4 imo grant more than what rogue 1-2 give outside of evasion.

Completely agree with this. Reflex is a primary bard save getting a good score here is easy enough. I think rog synergises well for 2wf btu i dont like two weapon fighting for a bard at epic levels as the numbers and what u have to sacrifice in terms of stat allocation and feats doesnt add up.

Have you tried a TWF Bard / Rogue / Ftr at epic levels? It definitely adds up, plus they can do the traps, deal far more damage to stunned mobs, and get nice sneak attack bonuses. Wouldn't try it on a 28-point build though...

On a different note, I'm interested that no one is discussing the Spellsinger and Virtuoso PREs - they seem so far off the radar. Maybe everyone will just go Virtuoso?

[AltheaSteelrain]

On a different note, I'm interested that no one is discussing the Spellsinger and Virtuoso PREs - they seem so far off the radar. Maybe everyone will just go Virtuoso?

Go make a thread discussing that

[Nick_RC]

Have you tried a TWF Bard / Rogue / Ftr at epic levels? It definitely adds up, plus they can do the traps, deal far more damage to stunned mobs, and get nice sneak attack bonuses. Wouldn't try it on a 28-point build though...

On a different note, I'm interested that no one is discussing the Spellsinger and Virtuoso PREs - they seem so far off the radar. Maybe everyone will just go Virtuoso?

Honestly I havnt because I cant get the numbers where I want them for Too hit, hit points, feats purposes. For stun dps absolutely 2wf and all the bonuses songs and sneak dmg that 2wf gains over 2 handed is very compelling its that too hit that concerns me and has held me from considering it. Please feel free to convince me If you can provide me with the feat layout that you are using, basic stat allocation/end stats or if u are using a build somewhere just link it. Id love to find something more effective than what im planning.

N

[Cetus]

Hey Man how goes the TR's? Got Groan one rank into lvl 19 on my final life for a while - if runnin epics il be around in a week or so to run em. Thought id respond to give you my 2c on the differences between the splits.

Comments in Red.

N



Hey Man how goes the TR's? Got groan one rank into lvl 19 on my final life for a while - if runnin epics il be around in a week or so to run em. Thought id respond to give you my 2c on the differences between the splits.

Comments in Red.

N

Eh man, you know TR's are so friggin monotonous that I try to suqeeze in some raiding just to offset it. Especially with the completionist and trple monk/barb idea that I cursed myself with .

I see you're putting a great dent in those lives you planned on getting done Well done, that dudes gonna be even more of a beast.

Thats an excellent analysis you have there, and now that I'm taking a second to compare fighter 3-4 vs. barb 1-2 you have a stronger argument- especially sprint boost and fascinating- but I just hate having to compromise my spellcasting while raging to hack away at a target. (just in case you gotta start healing/cc)

I apologize for being ambiguous in my comparison- I intended to compare full fledged barb vs. fighter. However, the 2/2 seems like something I actually want to try now =]

I obviously took the WS- I Just threw out the first 3 feats that came to mind to illustrate the opening of toughness feats via the fighter levels. But since WS is a class feat, It would be more appropriate to throw that in there instead


And just a word on hitpoints, (unraged) You would lose 10 hp from the second fighter toughness tier (since you can only have one toughness line at a time, the first barb toughness tier won't be available) You lose the extra feat, but you are no longer granted WS so the toughness feats remain the same.

Raged (with the barb past life), it shoots your hp ahead. However, your unbuffed is lower. The past life is bugged as well, which only gives you 5 hp (as opposed to the 1hp/character level description) you lose another 17 for taking that. So you are roughly down 20-30 hp unbuffed. You make back 80 when raging from the +8 con, which earns you significant hp lead (this is a back of the envelope calc since im not accounting for hp/level differences), not to mention the barb 10hp passive, but I guess you can acquire that on both builds, but your self healing is impaired. If you are low on hp and need to heal, dismissing the rage to heal yourself might kill ya

All in all, comparing unraged stats, 4ftr grants you a net of +1 dmg from the WS vs the PA, you gain a +1 to hit. You are at a slight gain of hp as illustrated above. Plus an extra 5% haste boost. Fulltime spell casting.

If raged (with the past life) Your dps obviously pulls way ahead with an extra 8 str, hp respectably, but the lack of spellcasting may be more detrimental than the extra dps/hp (this is largely dependant on the situation though)

Raged (without past life) seems a bit dimming, less duration on rages, -4 str/con in comparison, but +17 hp for not taking the feat. just mentioning this for those who don't have any intention of TR'ing.

Let me know if you spot any errors there, but the builds seem to be fairly balanced in their benefits and detriments.