Doom for the heavy multiclassed warchanter?

[AltheaSteelrain]

My personal Opinion states I have officially gimped myself by going for 14 bard 4 fighter 2 barb route, and after all my research to figure out which of which will get affected, my stance is still that technically I have gimped myself. But heck, I am gimp to begin with so might as well

Moving forward, this U7 SOURCE I am currently following, has some very interesting information...

2nd tier for bard prestige enhancements and possible tune up for level 1

So is it still viable, come U7, to multiclass bards or, the revamp of both tier I and tier II warchanter would change the new min/max route of creating a warchanter?

Discuss.

[SpiritBoy]

I doubt Chanter3 will be THAT MUCH good to make 16bard completely worthless. We really need to wait for the full descriptions before we condemn 16bards to gimpness.

[Maegin]

Yep. and just like how times change, we have a reroll button and can adapt. I personally see the power in multiclassing, but never liked it cause you never know what will be the next flavor of the month, and with pure, not too much changes. Plus potential new capstones.

[AltheaSteelrain]

Yep. and just like how times change, we have a reroll button and can adapt. I personally see the power in multiclassing, but never liked it cause you never know what will be the next flavor of the month, and with pure, not too much changes. Plus potential new capstones.

But that is the beauty of multiclassing, its to create your ideal "capstones" through synergy and ingenious creativity

Though I also believe pure-classing is the least damaged by update changes.

[moorewr]

My bard is 16 bard/3 rogue/1 fighter. If I LR to go 18bard/2 rogue, I give up either GTWF or Extend - extend being more likely (also I lose a hand full of HP), and I get {fill in the blank}. I wont know which way I'll go till I see Warchanter III spelled out.

[AltheaSteelrain]

My bard is 16 bard/3 rogue/1 fighter. If I LR to go 18bard/2 rogue, I give up either GTWF or Extend - extend being more likely (also I lose a hand full of HP), and I get {fill in the blank}. I wont know which way I'll go till I see Warchanter III spelled out.

That is also how I see it.

its like losing myself over ?... Its a big ? Hence I am alarmed like ! to pick up whatever information as of now regarding the bard PrE's through this discussion thread.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

But that is the beauty of multiclassing, its to create your ideal "capstones" through synergy and ingenious creativity

Though I also believe pure-classing is the least damaged by update changes.

Well put. If you build smart, there is no need to "FEAR" the future.

The builds that tend to get borked are the one trick ponies that build around a single offense (dual wops come to mind - fix: they nerfed wops)

Bards are so diverse however, I don't think they can render very many mixed class warchanters non-competitive. If we need to adapt, we can.

[AltheaSteelrain]

Well put. If you build smart, there is no need to "FEAR" the future. I believe diving right in and build what makes sense to me and build what is fun to play. Turbine has almost never borked these kinds of builds.

The builds that tend to get borked are the one trick ponies that build around a single offense (dual wops come to mind - fix: they nerfed wops)

Bards are so diverse however, I don't think they can render very many mixed class warchanters non-competitive.

True, at any rate for consolidation I guess it is safe for every Genghis Khan and other warchanter variants (publicity!~) to say that at least we can have access to Warchanter II :P

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I'm all for Turbine showing bards love! If Turbine comes up with a pure warchanter that can do everything that I can do, I'll gladly LR into a pure bard and adjust stats accordingly, or just go 1 fighter/1 barb.

My recommendation for all bard multis with clear definable paths (aka you KNOW why you splashed) is to stay on course. Turbine has a LOT of ground to make up with the warchanter pre and I'm not really sure they can. If they do, we can and will adapt.

[ArkoHighStar]

Anybody can TR not just VIP?

I have planned out the TR of my rogue into a 16b/2f/2r warchanter but decided to wait until U7 to see if any of the pre etc changed. I am glad I made taht decision

[AltheaSteelrain]

Anybody can TR not just VIP?

I have planned out the TR of my rogue into a 16b/2f/2r warchanter but decided to wait until U7 to see if any of the pre etc changed. I am glad I made taht decision

f2p can TR, but on my account I cannot, most unfortunate, seeing that I made a mistake to pick delera over sands, now I have to double my effort to regain the said TP, triple even when I chose to buy that 50% discounted extra character slot instead, for extra bardiness (I love creating bards)

[AltheaSteelrain]

I'm all for Turbine showing bards love! If Turbine comes up with a pure warchanter that can do everything that I can do, I'll gladly LR into a pure bard and adjust stats accordingly, or just go 1 fighter/1 barb.

My recommendation for all bard multis with clear definable paths (aka you KNOW why you splashed) is to stay on course. Turbine has a LOT of ground to make up with the warchanter pre and I'm not really sure they can. If they do, we can and will adapt.

Ah!~ The great Khanate visits my little spot in the forums!~

Though the news is generally great, personally this is way overdue already, but heck, better late than never right? But I posted this thread just so we can compile whatever information we can get as of now about the full tiers of the Warchanter; I am assuming of course that it is only the Warchanter PrE that can get away with multiclassing.

Regardless, I am just gathering whatever information I can before the big change happens hence to create a weighing scale for players to decide whether to LR/TR their multiclassed bards into full tier warchanters PrE.

Ultimately this spells a great grindfest for my bard, now that I need more TP (I'm f2p) to access demon sands to finally grind yet again for epic tokens for TR

[AltheaSteelrain]

I doubt Chanter3 will be THAT MUCH good to make 16bard completely worthless. We really need to wait for the full descriptions before we condemn 16bards to gimpness.

True. As of now, I am still quite confident regardless of my sudden inclination for the word doom, that I can bring staple DPS through my personal DPS because of my choice of splash. Though if we look at other PrE's, for example the defender of Siberys, their special ability scales quite well for a PrE, if we then speculate using how this example scaled well, there is a possibility that the Bard PrE's will turn out great.

(Did I use a bad example of a PrE that scales well? I dunno, just feeding the discussion)

I'm speculating that the tier II and tier III will bring more overall song DPS(duh!) and probably additional DR from Ironskin Chant. *crosses fingers*

If so, then maybe multi-classing is still viable for a bard come U7.

[Kintro]

Well my personal opinion implies I gimped myself come update 7 with my 14 bard/4fighter/2 barbarian bardbarian as a f2p, I figure as well that VIPS can LR/TR anyway, so this post may not be suitable at all. But given the spoilers come update 7 of full bard PrE's, guess the new min-max bard route would be 18 bard / 2 rogue and/or 20 bard?

Discuss.

I wouldn't worry just yet, we don't even know if tier 3 is coming in update 7. If the previous PrE release is anything to go by we'll be getting lots more to tier 2 first.

The only thing that indicates tier 3 is the features list includes Shintao Monk which is already tier 2. Though they may have mistakenly put Shintao when they meant Henshin.

[Pugsley]

Well my personal opinion implies I gimped myself come update 7 with my 14 bard/4fighter/2 barbarian bardbarian as a f2p, I figure as well that VIPS can LR/TR anyway, so this post may not be suitable at all. But given the spoilers come update 7 of full bard PrE's, guess the new min-max bard route would be 18 bard / 2 rogue and/or 20 bard?

Discuss.

Please people, if you reference something obscure you read somewhere, please link to it so we know what you are talking about. These forums are big.

[khaldan]

From here, it appears that half elves may get something that allows them to do something called Dilettante, which allows you to get a feature from another class, without actually taking a level in that class. 18/2 bard/fight/dill barb with PL:barb maybe?

Editing for a better explanation: Most of the warchanter bards I see go human, so by going half elf we're down a feat, thus the 2 fighter. In theory, Dilettante will let you get a feature from another class, in this case barbarian. We take it and the PL:barb, and grab most of the good stuff from barbarian, get warchanter 3, and hopefully have enough feats for everything.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

From here, it appears that half elves may get something that allows them to do something called Dilettante, which allows you to get a feature from another class, without actually taking a level in that class. 18/2 bard/fight/dill barb with PL:barb maybe?

Very cool, I hadn't seen that. I am all for new options. The more options the better. I like barb and rogue splashes, and feel more options are a huge win for the bard class.

[Cetus]

Well, nick does a great job at convincing the usefulness of the barb levels to maximize a bards dps. However, when I built my battle bard I refrained from touching barb; and instead settled on 4 full fighter levels because of the following:

1. When I'm running epics- I can't afford to have my source of dps and hp also inhibit my ability to either dance an opponent, heal a party member, ddoor, or buff. Sure I can always dismiss the rage, but that is 1 less rage I now have for whatever else I'll be dealing with later.

2. The barbarian levels don't allow the 3 class feats I used to acquire Improved critical, PA, and weapon focus in order to open up potential toughness feats for further hp pool expansion (when chopping away at the epic DQ for instance)

3. Going full 4 fighter levels also unlocks the second tier haste boost, 20% is a great suplement to the feat distribution, not to mention the fighter str tiers and fighter toughness enhancements. Its an all round boost to dps and hp via feats and enhancements without compromising your spellcasting abilities.

Two rogue levels are great, but my bards saves are sufficient to not have to rely on evasion to survive. Fighter 2-4 imo grant more than what rogue 1-2 give outside of evasion.


Just my two cp. =D

[Irinis]

Barb is a weird thing to splash but I find I like it in certain situations. Just relax and pretend you're a REAL melee, be babysat for once after being the versatile "smooth every situation the group faces" character... I've used Barb rage so very rarely but whenever I have, I've LOVED the extra STR and CON. Face it, we Bards are d6 for hp... we need all the help we can get!

[Nick_RC]

Hey Man how goes the TR's? Got Groan one rank into lvl 19 on my final life for a while - if runnin epics il be around in a week or so to run em. Thought id respond to give you my 2c on the differences between the splits.

Comments in Red.

N

Well, nick does a great job at convincing the usefulness of the barb levels to maximize a bards dps. However, when I built my battle bard I refrained from touching barb; and instead settled on 4 full fighter levels because of the following:

Before replying im looking at specificaly ur ftr 4 vs ftr 2 barb 2 split And obviously onthing personal just thrashing out the nitty gritty.

1. When I'm running epics- I can't afford to have my source of dps and hp also inhibit my ability to either dance an opponent, heal a party member, ddoor, or buff. Sure I can always dismiss the rage, but that is 1 less rage I now have for whatever else I'll be dealing with later.

I think you are overstating the hp and combat dps ftr lvls 3-4 brings. Raging is awesome but compare an unraged 2 barb split vs ftr lvl 3+4 (Assuming the barb variant took 2 lvls of ftr also). U get

Fighters Favor

+6 hit points (costing 2ap - nothings for free!)
Haste Boost II (5% increase over the barb variant for under one minute only)
+1 to hit (Barb Power Attack cancels out Weapons specialisation for a 2 hander - my personal pref for epic running on a bard - I cant seem to get 2wf to high enough values to satisfy me. I quickly MyDDOd ur bard to see what you were playing with so I could make some comparisons. Looks like ur goign 2 handed also.)
Possible +1 to tactics (But without the Barb PL and Barb levels getting ur str up enough to make this viable is unlikey)

Barbs Favor unraged

10% Run speed
5 Sprint boosts

The reason I mention these is there is awesome synergy in high base run speed, Sprint boost, and fascinate. U can use that mobility to avoid attacks (if skulled) or get to where u need to FAST (like hauling ass to a failing base is EV6)

Conclusion

Ftr : +1 to hit, +6 hp, 5% alacrity for under one minute.
Barb : greater Manoueverability.

In my eyes that isnt a "source of hitpoints(6) and DPS" (+1 to hit and 5% alacrity for sub-one min).

Edit: When i saw ur 3 free ftr feats u listed as you used (impr crit PA and WF) it seems ur not taking WS? if you arnt taking WS the unrage barb is doing MORE dps than the 4 ftr split.

2. The barbarian levels don't allow the 3 class feats I used to acquire Improved critical, PA, and weapon focus in order to open up potential toughness feats for further hp pool expansion (when chopping away at the epic DQ for instance)

Firstly 2 barb/2 ftr vs 4 ftr only loses you one feat. Obviously u know this but maybe you were compararing 4 barb? If so no I couldnt recommend anything higher than 2 Barb + Barb PL and 2 ftr lvls for the 4 feat split. Funnily enough you're point on chopping away alludes to Boss fights where only DPS matters. This provides me a good place to launch the Raged Barb vs Ftr comparison.

So assuming similar base stats il do the following comparison (Im going to use WS instead of Toughness uif you dont mind for max dps). If you dont mind i'd like to include the Barb PL feat as that what pertains to my personal build plans - and I guess thats the point of this thread figuring out what split brings what benefits. Also I may as well tell you what my rages look like at a 2 lvl split with the Barb PL - 4 Rages (with FB tod set), lasting aorund 4 mins each giving +8 str/con.

Raged 2 Barb/2ftr vs 4 ftr split - DPS and HP standpoint.

Barb

+ 80hp (Rage)
+4 to hit + 6 (Damage)
-1 to hit +2 Damage (Barb PA)
5x +2 damage boosts for under one minute (situationally engageable good in dq)
+8 str to help vs knockdown ( I think im looking at around 50 str for a wf version giving you a reasonable save vs that knockdown).
One use of uncanny dodge (Minor)

Fighter
+6 hp from ftr tough II
+2 hp from the difference between Barb PL feat and regular tough feat.
+2 Damage WS
+5 % alacrity for under one minute ( I vs II)

Conclusion

Barb has a higher to hit (+3) does more damage a swing (+6 a swing) has more hp (72ish) and boosts will balance out - once u run out of haste boosts and then the barb variant uses dmg boosts.

3. Going full 4 fighter levels also unlocks the second tier haste boost, 20% is a great suplement to the feat distribution, not to mention the fighter str tiers and fighter toughness enhancements. Its an all round boost to dps and hp via feats and enhancements without compromising your spellcasting abilities.

Str tier is attained at lvl 2 the 2/2 split cna benefit from this just as much as the 4 split. Everything else was addressed above.

Two rogue levels are great, but my bards saves are sufficient to not have to rely on evasion to survive. Fighter 2-4 imo grant more than what rogue 1-2 give outside of evasion.

Completely agree with this. Reflex is a primary bard save getting a good score here is easy enough. I think rog synergises well for 2wf btu i dont like two weapon fighting for a bard at epic levels as the numbers and what u have to sacrifice in terms of stat allocation and feats doesnt add up.

Just my two cp. =D

Hey Man how goes the TR's? Got groan one rank into lvl 19 on my final life for a while - if runnin epics il be around in a week or so to run em. Thought id respond to give you my 2c on the differences between the splits.

Comments in Red.

N