Suggestion to help newbies - Fortification tutorial

[sirgog]

Something I think should be added to the lower mid levels.

Add a one-time non-dungeon quest, bestowed by the person next to a popular F2P quest (I'm thinking Stormcleave), that awards a (character bound) Moderate Fortification item and triggers a tutorial (via the little in-game hints) about why Fortification is important to all characters, whether they are low-AC low-HP arcane casters, high-HP low-AC barbarians, or medium-HP high-AC 'defender' builds.

[Aranticus]

i disagree. the problem isnt with a steep learning curve but rather the will to learn the game. many newer players just to not give a hoot to what is happening. they are not interested in making a solid build (i'm here just for fun), or in learning how the quest go (someone will alway know i just follow), or getting needed gear (anyone have 2 plat? help a new guy who wants a vorpal out), etc

my proposal is to have a quest filled with backstabbing rogues or pick wielding kensais. a choice is given at the start of the quest to pick up a uber weapon or a fort item (note going fort route will be safer) which disappears upon leaving the quest

remember, we want them to learn not give easy buttons for them to get loot

[FlyingTurtle]

At what level does fort start mattering more than AC?

My experience is that as a lowbie I'm very AC focused, and the problem might be timing the shift out of AC mode to DR and Fort mode.

Also the relative usefulness of DR vs Fort is not something I'm really clear about.

[Aranticus]

At what level does fort start mattering more than AC?

My experience is that as a lowbie I'm very AC focused, and the problem might be timing the shift out of AC mode to DR and Fort mode.

Also the relative usefulness of DR vs Fort is not something I'm really clear about.

primarily GH is where fort gets more important but in actual fact i think it really depends on which quest/mob

ie undead = low crit, durgear dwarves, ogres = high crit, normal = low crit, elite = high crit, etc

[sirgog]

At what level does fort start mattering more than AC?

My experience is that as a lowbie I'm very AC focused, and the problem might be timing the shift out of AC mode to DR and Fort mode.

Also the relative usefulness of DR vs Fort is not something I'm really clear about.

AC is better until about level 10 or so, when monsters start to deal really devastating critical hits.

At high level, a character with high AC (for the content they are running) but no fortification will take less damage than a character with 100% fort and no AC. However, they will also die more.

As an example, consider someone being attacked by Adur-Nuc, the rednamed Orc that's sometimes in the Shroud. He uses a greataxe, and crits for triple damage (presumably on a 19-20). He also stuns. Edit: It appears that these figures more accurately reflect Adur-Nuc on Hard or Elite difficulty. The point still stands.



Case 1: 350hp, 100% fort, 20 AC (he hits you on a 2): 95% of the time, hit for about 65 damage. If stunned, 100% of the time, hit for ~65.
- Here, you can survive five consecutive attacks, guaranteed. It doesn't matter if you are stunned or not. Average ~62 damage per swing he makes at you.
- Although you are taking a lot of damage, you are very easy to heal as the damage is totally predictable.
- You don't need a heal when over 80hp, as you won't die to one swing.


Case 2: 350hp, 0 Fort, 65 AC (I'm guessing this is about enough to only be hit half of the time): 5% of the time, critically hit for about 200 damage. 45% of the time, hit for about 65 damage. If stunned, 100% of the time, hit for ~200.
- Here, you take an average of only ~40 damage per time he swings at you - sounds great! However, you will sometimes die in three swings (if he gets lucky rolls). It's a long-ish fight (Adur-Nuc has 10000 hp, and you usually won't kill him until the group is ready), so you will get both lucky and unlucky streaks.
- If you are stunned, you pretty much just drop dead. No ifs, no buts, just splat.
- You also pretty much require healing when you fall much under 250hp, as you can die to a single unlucky swing.

[FlyingTurtle]

Thanks for the info. That's a fortification tutorial right there.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Free moderate fort? Yes, please. Let's dumb down the game even more than it has been already. But why stop there? Let's give all new accounts a free mineral 2 greataxe with a ml 2

/not signed

[Scraap]

I'd have to agree a give-away of mod/heavy forts overkill for tutorial purposes. Perhaps a light fort belt with a -1 dex mod (or even -2) so they're encouraged to get a real one would serve? Or would them getting more frequently hit assuming it's in a level range where average ac still matters give the wrong impression? Do have to say the underlying notion of in-game tutes for generally expected gear seems like a good one, at least.

[sirgog]

I'd have to agree a give-away of mod/heavy forts overkill for tutorial purposes. Perhaps a light fort belt with a -1 dex mod (or even -2) so they're encouraged to get a real one would serve? Or would them getting more frequently hit assuming it's in a level range where average ac still matters give the wrong impression? Do have to say the underlying notion of in-game tutes for generally expected gear seems like a good one, at least.

Light fort is almost worthless - there's a light fort belt on Korthos that's a weak end reward for the second quest in the chain. You probably haven't noticed it, because the same quest also awards a far superior Lesser False Life belt, which is much better at keeping your character alive

Medium fort is worthwhile gear, but (on non-WF toons) is quickly outlevelled - the perfect thing to give away. People will use it for a couple of levels, learn the value of fort, then vendor/destroy it when they get something better as an end reward for a real quest.

On WF it may require a penalty - perhaps Repair Amplification -20% (reduces the effectiveness of arcane healing by 20%).

[Wizzly_Bear]

Or they could actually learn the game like the rest of us.

[FlyingTurtle]

Or they could actually learn the game at the expense of the rest of us.

Fixed.

It's probably hard to understand, but casual players don't mind dying or playing suboptimally. If it's not a simple message like "FORTIFICATION IS IMPORTANT FROM HERE OUT" to replace the lowbie mentality of "MORE PLUSSES IS BETTER", they'll just go "oh, I died" and try the exact same thing all over again (and eventually succeed due to sheer force of luck).

[Scraap]

Or they could actually learn the game like the rest of us.

True. Now if Turbine'll stop slapping 10% xp weeks on top of +10% xp pot sales, there might be a chance for them to do so before it's wipe-time all the time. (Yes, I just said there's too much xp in the game. I'll go get the flame retardant)

[Dandonk]

Fixed.

It's probably hard to understand, but casual players don't mind dying or playing suboptimally. If it's not a simple message like "FORTIFICATION IS IMPORTANT FROM HERE OUT" to replace the lowbie mentality of "MORE PLUSSES IS BETTER", they'll just go "oh, I died" and try the exact same thing all over again (and eventually succeed due to sheer force of luck).

Or they'll come to the boards and say the quest is too hard and needs to be nerfed, "because not everyone is a super elite powergamer with access to uber items all the time".
Worst part is, they will and actually already have succeeded in that.

[FlyingTurtle]

Or they'll come to the boards and say the quest is too hard and needs to be nerfed, "because not everyone is a super elite powergamer with access to uber items all the time".
Worst part is, they will and actually already have succeeded in that.

I have a very strong feeling that the population of casual players actually bothering to get on the ddo boards (of the kind I described, who actually don't see a fundamental difference between DDO and, say, Mario) is virtually zero.

[Dandonk]

I have a very strong feeling that the population of casual players actually bothering to get on the ddo boards (of the kind I described, who actually don't see a fundamental difference between DDO and, say, Mario) is virtually zero.

Well, Tear of Dhakaan is already EasyButtoned, after a poster complained it was too hard. So at least one did.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Fixed.

It's probably hard to understand, but casual players don't mind dying or playing suboptimally. If it's not a simple message like "FORTIFICATION IS IMPORTANT FROM HERE OUT" to replace the lowbie mentality of "MORE PLUSSES IS BETTER", they'll just go "oh, I died" and try the exact same thing all over again (and eventually succeed due to sheer force of luck).

Hi, I see you're new to DDO. Welcome!

Don't fix my posts newblood. The rest of us, lol The rest of us learned why fortification was important either by listening to the advice of others, or by firsthand experience. Why should we coddle today's new players? They have it so much easier than we did that its almost a completely different game.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Well, Tear of Dhakaan is already EasyButtoned, after a poster complained it was too hard. So at least one did.

Korthos, STK, Abbot, CoK, and, technically speaking, all quests via shortened spell effects and dungeon scaling.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Takes 2 to Tango

[Dandonk]

Korthos, STK, Abbot, CoK, and, technically speaking, all quests via shortened spell effects and dungeon scaling.

Ah, yes. My bad.

[FlyingTurtle]

Hi, I see you're new to DDO. Welcome!

Don't fix my posts newblood. The rest of us, lol The rest of us learned why fortification was important either by listening to the advice of others, or by firsthand experience. Why should we coddle today's new players? They have it so much easier than we did that its almost a completely different game.

Nice, instead of discussing the issues, we're now discussing my joindate.

Good day to you, sir.