Pure Dark Monk: Wind 4 vs Sun 4 stance

[Crinos]

listen to this guy. even if you crit 100% of time your mainhand WONT average 126 damage. there is no time when wind does more than sun at this current time. there are no epic wraps thus our dmg is coming from our earth strikes (earth 4, earth 3, foi, finisher repeat) and a wind user cant keep that up AND ToD every 15 seconds thus making them do less dps. this doesnt even count the fact that if they have wind 4 their str isnt as high before the stances as someone with sun 4 earth 4, so they are already loses extra dmg per hit just by going dex!

right now there is no comparison, sun 4 > wind 4 for dps at this current time, odds are it will change as before this update it was the other way around, and when it changes all of us sun users will go back to wind, simple as that...

on a side note, wind 4 can generate 5 tods in a row where sun and all the other stances can only do 3, sure it's very random but just food for thought.

I don't think he's saying that he expects anyone's mainhand to average 126 damage. He's saying that according to the maths he's used that's what it would need to do for wind 4 to be better than sun 4. He makes no claim that this is an achievable target.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Simple Calc:

With roughly 200 attacks per minute you generate just over 200 ki.... which is just enough to use TOD as soon as its cooldown is up regardless of stance.

With Firestance 4 you generate an additional 250 ki and do +2 damage per hit.

Using all tier 3&4 strikes you average almost 30 damage per strike at 7.5 ki per strike, which is nearly 4 damage per ki. (which can vary depending on enemy vulnerabilities/weaknesses, but 250 ki is only enough to perform 1 strike every 2 seconds anyway, so you can use whichever elements work best)

So...

4 damage per ki * 250 extra ki = 1000 damage per minute extra using firestance.

1000 damage / 200 hits per minute = 5 damage per hit from ki strikes


Totals:

(5 damage from ki strikes + 2 base damage from strength) * 180% main/offhand =
12.6 damage per swing using firestance

Since wind stance gives a flat +10% increase to mainhand damage the calculation is simple:
If your mainhand does over 126 damage on average then windstance will do more dps then firestance.

This calculation is not accurate. 1/10 of all those attacks will be critical, and with Crane 4 the total Ki generated will not be 200, but rather 284, while in Wind 4. Fire 4 will give a total of 480 Ki during the same period (not having Crane 4).

Against a stunned mob (which when you're doing Epics, when are the mobs not stunned???), Wind 4 will generate nearly 1000 Ki in one minute. That's more than enough to keep up a full rotation of Ki strikes.

Granted, this will only apply to trash mobs, but it isn't hard to keep up enough Ki on bosses, even without Oremi's.

[Crinos]

Against a stunned mob (which when you're doing Epics, when are the mobs not stunned???), Wind 4 will generate nearly 1000 Ki in one minute. That's more than enough to keep up a full rotation of Ki strikes.

Granted, this will only apply to trash mobs, but it isn't hard to keep up enough Ki on bosses, even without Oremi's.

I'm curious to know how you believe you manage to keep up enough ki on bosses in wind 4 without Oremi's. Or even with Oremi's for that matter. I assume that's what you are saying here.

While I have found that Crane is a reasonable substitute for Sun 4 on stunnable mobs, I have never found it to be even close on Bosses where even Sun 4 and Oremi's can only just about keep up with my Ki usage.

[Hokonoso]

I don't think he's saying that he expects anyone's mainhand to average 126 damage. He's saying that according to the maths he's used that's what it would need to do for wind 4 to be better than sun 4. He makes no claim that this is an achievable target.

sorry if i was unclear as i 100% agree with you. im saying because of his statement that it is impossible for wind 4 to do more dps because you cannot avg 126 dmg in your mainhand at this current juncture of the game.

and both sun and wind users have access to shintao or oremi's so there is no argument there where wind + oremi > sun + shintao is like saying wind + handwraps > sun + qstaff, you are not comparing apples to apples. sure ones gear may change cause they are wind 4 vs sun 4 but for us high dps str monks our gear does not change one bit going from the two stances, only our stance does. right now sun is more dps so we are in sun, soon as wind is more dps we will switch back to wind (note i said back to), our gear will not change as for max dps you wear a certain set of gear period regardless of what stance you are in.

also dont take my word for it or anyones math, do the tests yourself. with your wind 4 monk, go kill stuff, then reset enhancements and go to sun 4 and see for yourself. if you are a str dps monk you should qualify for both stances automatically so it should just be a change in your enhancements. i was wind until i tested myself and now im sun and will stay that way until wind is fixed to be better dps again (unless the current status of monks is WAI...)

[Crinos]

sorry if i was unclear as i 100% agree with you. im saying because of his statement that it is impossible for wind 4 to do more dps because you cannot avg 126 dmg in your mainhand at this current juncture of the game.

and both sun and wind users have access to shintao or oremi's so there is no argument there where wind + oremi > sun + shintao is like saying wind + handwraps > sun + qstaff, you are not comparing apples to apples. sure ones gear may change cause they are wind 4 vs sun 4 but for us high dps str monks our gear does not change one bit going from the two stances, only our stance does. right now sun is more dps so we are in sun, soon as wind is more dps we will switch back to wind (note i said back to), our gear will not change as for max dps you wear a certain set of gear period regardless of what stance you are in.

also dont take my word for it or anyones math, do the tests yourself. with your wind 4 monk, go kill stuff, then reset enhancements and go to sun 4 and see for yourself. if you are a str dps monk you should qualify for both stances automatically so it should just be a change in your enhancements. i was wind until i tested myself and now im sun and will stay that way until wind is fixed to be better dps again (unless the current status of monks is WAI...)

Sorry, my misreading of your intent. When you said 'listen to this guy....' you actually meant it, whereas I read it as 'Listen to this guy (he's taking nonsense) ....'.

And yes, I've tried sun 4 and wind 4. As a human dark monk I actually have the AP to have both at once, so I don't need to reset my enhancements to test the difference. It's very easy to see which works better when you can just flip between stances while killing stuff.

Wind 4 is seriously lagging behind on the important stuff (bosses) because you can't get the ki from Crane autocrits.

[Monkey_Archer]

This calculation is not accurate. 1/10 of all those attacks will be critical, and with Crane 4 the total Ki generated will not be 200, but rather 284, while in Wind 4. Fire 4 will give a total of 480 Ki during the same period (not having Crane 4).

Against a stunned mob (which when you're doing Epics, when are the mobs not stunned???), Wind 4 will generate nearly 1000 Ki in one minute. That's more than enough to keep up a full rotation of Ki strikes.

Granted, this will only apply to trash mobs, but it isn't hard to keep up enough Ki on bosses, even without Oremi's.

It is accurate for the variables i used...
Which are: Sun stance + no necklace + no crane Vs. Wind stance + no necklace + no crane.

TOD costs 200 ki per minute to use continuously, which any monk can generate.
Tier 3/4 strikes cost 140/160 ki per minute to use continuously.

Crane 4 only adds ~80 ki per minute, which is enough to spam 0.5 ki strikes.
Oremis adds ~200 ki per minute, which is enough to spam 1.3 ki strikes.
Fire adds ~280 ki per minute, which is only enough to spam 1.9 ki strikes.

The only way wind does more dps then fire is if you can generate enough ki to use all of your available high damage strikes.

Oremis + Crane 4 gives a wind stance monk enough ki to spam 2 additional stikes on top of TOD (usually earth 3+4).
Fire stance also allows you to spam 2 additional strikes (which does require the enemey you're fighting to be vulnerable to at least 1 element)


So...
If the target is vulnerable to at least 1 element, my previous calc still holds that wind would need ~126 damage per mainhand to out dps firestance.

In fact, most monks will have at least 6 available high damage ki strikes (all tier III strikes + 2 tier IV strikes + possibly void strikes too) so even with oremis + crane IV + firestance IV you wont generate enough ki to use all of them.


For epic trash using Crane IV, Water > Wind > Earth > Fire because keeping the mobs stunned will always yeild more dps then any double strikes/ki strikes/base damage could possibly hope to.

[Mobeius]

Remember when you're doing calculations... Oremi's necklace +1 Ki per hit... Sun Stance is, I forget, I think its +3 or +4 ki per hit for GM.

[RATRACE931]

You forgot that currently Wind can get (rarely) 4 and even 5 ToD with one usage not just 3. But i dont understand why every1 is mad or argueing that Fire is more DPS, of course it is it SHOULD be the highest dps stance. The difference isnt really that much more but it is most deffinatly more. As for +5 great bane HW i have between 7-9 (lil blurry as in at work) so its entirely reasonable in the calc. As for the Ki generation in wind stance im a litte insulted, use trash mobs before every boss fight to fill up your ki bar (or meditate if ur a patient bum) and ive never run out of Ki on any boss in Wind spamming 4 Ki and ToD every 15.

[Hokonoso]

after running tests in epic, found out sun is still more than water as sun + stunning blow > water + stunning fist even tho the cooldown on fist is lower. cause you are killing stuff so much faster in sun, even in epic it is way too hard to keep a large enough ki bar in water stance. on paper it would appear water is better but in actually after testing i find it is not. dont take my word on it tho, run tests yourself as the differences are not small.

[RATRACE931]

Imho if you want to make a DPS monk go fire, if you want an AC survivability (easily) go finesse wind, both sides can tank both have alot of survivabilty, both can get stun DC's in the 40's range, Wind the stun is a little higher and more sustainable + AC is always nice. Fire you have to buff to get a Stun thats in the same range but really thats not much of a big deal + more damage. Its a trade off ill never not be finesse/wind on my monk but ill also never disallusion myself into thinking i have more DPS than Hoko... well... unless he's on his barb

[Monkey_Archer]

after running tests in epic, found out sun is still more than water as sun + stunning blow > water + stunning fist even tho the cooldown on fist is lower. cause you are killing stuff so much faster in sun, even in epic it is way too hard to keep a large enough ki bar in water stance. on paper it would appear water is better but in actually after testing i find it is not. dont take my word on it tho, run tests yourself as the differences are not small.

Well that depends alot on the build...
My monk runs with a 30-38 wisdom (DC 40-44 stunning fist) and has Crane III. With 5 ki per crit (9 ki per swing counting offhand) in water stance, thats more then enough to spam all the important strikes (fist of iron, earth, earth, earth finisher, tod + anything else i can squeeze in)

A 50-58 Str monk that can kill anything in less then 6 seconds before the stun wears off (or uses other's stuns/holds/etc) will definitely out dps water stance and wouldnt need to use Crane, but in my experience thats very rare, and not really sustainable

[twoton]

a few things that make sun better over air now if your a str build monk.

Is that air no longer has a insight bonus to attack speed that stacks with haste.

Sun ups your str so you have more dmg plus a higher to hit.

More hit points since sun takes away from wis not con like air stance.

Sun stance can also get 3+ tod's its not exclusive to air stance.

[AylinIsAwesome]

It is accurate for the variables i used...
Which are: Sun stance + no necklace + no crane Vs. Wind stance + no necklace + no crane.

I cannot think of any Wind Monk that wouldn't take Crane while trying to max DPS.

Sun stance can also get 3+ tod's its not exclusive to air stance.

Wind stance routinely gives 5 ToDs.

[Kasen_Darksword]

Fire Stance gives the same amount of ToD's right now until they fix or if they fix it. Perhaps you should try it?

[Hokonoso]

Imho if you want to make a DPS monk go fire, if you want an AC survivability (easily) go finesse wind, both sides can tank both have alot of survivabilty, but can get stun DC's in the 40's range, Wind the stun is a little higher and more sustainable + AC is always nice. Fire you have to buff to get a Stun thats in the same range but really thats not much of a big deal + more damage. Its a trade off ill never not be finesse/wind on my monk but ill also never disallusion myself into thinking i have more DPS than Hoko... well... unless he's on his barb

exactly my point, if your goal is str based dps then wind is not your friend. but if you want ac at all then you have a high dex/wis one or the other and am not worried about max dps. the problem was that all of us str dps monks had 18 or so dex and gm wind stance and used it for dps, that is not the case is all im trying to make

[rimble]

exactly my point, if your goal is str based dps then wind is not your friend. but if you want ac at all then you have a high dex/wis one or the other and am not worried about max dps. the problem was that all of us str dps monks had 18 or so dex and gm wind stance and used it for dps, that is not the case is all im trying to make

Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.

As a Finesse build, mostly I'm in Wind, but sometimes I'm in Fire. Depends if I need a cup or a teapot (or something like that, but don't be Water, that's just dumb. Stupid Bruce Lee.).

I agree, though, that 'Wind is always better' is a thing of the past.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Fire Stance gives the same amount of ToD's right now until they fix or if they fix it. Perhaps you should try it?

My Monk is Human; I have both Wind and Fire stances.

Wind gives up to 5, Fire gives up to 3. 5=/=3.

[RATRACE931]

exactly my point, if your goal is str based dps then wind is not your friend. but if you want ac at all then you have a high dex/wis one or the other and am not worried about max dps. the problem was that all of us str dps monks had 18 or so dex and gm wind stance and used it for dps, that is not the case is all im trying to make

I was agreein with ya ya jack*^%

[AylinIsAwesome]

I'm curious to know how you believe you manage to keep up enough ki on bosses in wind 4 without Oremi's. Or even with Oremi's for that matter. I assume that's what you are saying here.

While I have found that Crane is a reasonable substitute for Sun 4 on stunnable mobs, I have never found it to be even close on Bosses where even Sun 4 and Oremi's can only just about keep up with my Ki usage.

I generally beat on stunned trash to fill up my Ki bar, and then go beat on the boss. By the time my Ki pool empties, the boss is dead 9 times out of 10.

For bosses where that isn't feasible (say eVON6 as the casters take out the trash generally in my guild), I switch in Oremi's.

[Crinos]

I generally beat on stunned trash to fill up my Ki bar, and then go beat on the boss. By the time my Ki pool empties, the boss is dead 9 times out of 10.

For bosses where that isn't feasible (say eVON6 as the casters take out the trash generally in my guild), I switch in Oremi's.

Thanks for the explanation.

Don't think that would work too well for me as I tend to burn Ki on the trash mobs as well to take them out faster.
Still, seems a viable approach if you are willing to back off on your DPS a little on the trash mobs in order to use it where it really matters on the Bosses.