28 point TWF is possible

[Bacab]

You can make a 28 point TWF PLD.

Period.

It's just not as good as a 32(or 34/36) point PLD.

Though to Zach...

At levels 2 (Maelstrom) until about level 12ish...I would recommend going 2HF even if you are specced for 2WF.

The reasons are Maelstrom and Carnifex and if by some reason you are sitting on a SoS and are still a 28 pt build (not sure thats possible) you'd 2HF until you had your Greensteel or Holy Sword spell.

Though at level 6 if you have 2 Sunblades...they absolutely rock on undead.

It's pretty obvious that 32 point builds are superior to 28 point builds.

And TBH I would make a 28 Point Halfling over a Drow...but thats because I dislike Drow.

[Aschbart]

Sorry, but accuracy and damage are very important in the endgame.

There's a reason people don't build Paladins with 14 starting STR.

Which is why the OP mentioned using Scimitars: +1 to hit from Faith enhancement, +2 to hit from racial enhancement - so in the end you get a total benefit that puts your to hit on par with a 20 Str Paladin build, which doesn't even exist!

But aside from that...

End game - Really?
+4 tome - Hello?
Maelstroem, SoS, etc - What are you talking about?

In case you didn't notice, this is about 28 point builds, how many people run around with this kind of stuff or plan for Endgame that only have 28 builds available?

Be reasonable, please!

[Zachski]

Which is why the OP mentioned using Scimitars: +1 to hit from Faith enhancement, +2 to hit from racial enhancement - so in the end you get a total benefit that puts your to hit on par with a 20 Str Paladin build, which doesn't even exist!

Thank you for arguing on my behalf, but he already addressed this point. He said that he had already factored that in. A drow can do that with rapiers and maintain +1 hit over a 28-point Elf with scimitars.

[Nyvn]

the rest of the chain for twf does not reduce the to hit penalty only gives more double strike chances

It gives a higher percentage of off hand procs, not main hand double procs.


On 28 point TWF Paladin, it's a game play what you want. Will you be as good as a 32-36 point build? No, but you won't be gimped by missing 1 to hit.

[Aschbart]

Ah, must have missed that. So yes, drow could have another +1 to hit. Still makes your statement viable for new players that don't have drow yet.

I do agree with your OP - too many people tell brand new players they should stay away from Pally/TWF because 28 points isn't enough, and then point them to human builds who don't even have racial enhancements, so get at most +1 from faith enhancement, if they choose to go with longswords. And actually not even that, because a pally needs to crit and thus should use a high crit weapon.

I say, TWF pally is perfectly feasible for a new player, unless you are not the kind of player who wants to make your very first character the most perfect build in the world. IMHO nobody really plays that way, so there's no point in planning for end game or for specific named weapon that may or may not drop for you. For levels 1-19, +1 to hit willl not matter either. And even if it does, most likely other builds won't really be that much better off.

This is a game. If you like to play a paladin, and if you like TWF, then there is no reason you shouldn't try it. Whether it works for you, personally, is for you to decide. And if it doesn't, you can always roll up a new toon to avoid your earlier mistakes. This is most likely more fun than playing a race or going with a playstyle that doesn't match your preferences, and, ultimately, is no fun for you to play, even though it maight be more effective.

[Aranticus]

Ah, must have missed that. So yes, drow could have another +1 to hit. Still makes your statement viable for new players that don't have drow yet.

I do agree with your OP - too many people tell brand new players they should stay away from Pally/TWF because 28 points isn't enough, and then point them to human builds who don't even have racial enhancements, so get at most +1 from faith enhancement, if they choose to go with longswords. And actually not even that, because a pally needs to crit and thus should use a high crit weapon.

the main problem with a 28 pt twf paladin isnt just the str but the con as well. 12 con is a very dangerous proposition for a melee with the potential to draw a ton of agro

con = 12 base + 2 tome + 2 exceptional + 6 item = 22 = +6 mod

hp = 200 base + 120 con + 30 feats + 22 toughness feat + 30 gfl + 45 shroud + 60 toughness enh + 20 minos = 527 hp

this toon is pretty much twinked out which most players with only 28 point may not achieve. now you may say that 527 hp is quite a lot but in the endgame tod raid, that is equivalent to a 1 shot on a failed disintegrate from the raid boss horoth. many who have not done it before may think dying is no big deal but in that part of the raid, dying means the boss gets 25% hp more

now lets look at the str problem

str = 14 base + 6 item + 3 exceptional + 5 level up + 2 tome = 30 str. with rage and double madstone, you can get to 36 = +13 mod

attack = 20 bab + 13 str + 3 DF + 3 enh + 5 weapon + 4 GH = +48 or + 43 with power attack on, +52/47 vs evil outsiders

this number is not to bad if we are talking about content on normal, ie ac for arraetrikos on normal shroud L17 raid is 39, 45 on hard, 51 on elite. to take this paladin to elite or epic content, he would be missing quite a lot and thus would turn off PA to compensate for the reduction on the attack bonus. this is also without considering twf penalties (-4/-4 with med or large weapons, -2/-2 with light off hand).


in order to hit arraetrikos on elite on a roll of 2, the pally will require to lose PA and this over 20 attacks, lose 95 damage. now compare this with a thf paladin who is going to have a higher str and no twf penalties, which pally would contribute more in elite/epic content?

I say, TWF pally is perfectly feasible for a new player, unless you are not the kind of player who wants to make your very first character the most perfect build in the world.

its not about building a perfect character, its about building a character that can still function well in both low end and high end content

IMHO nobody really plays that way, so there's no point in planning for end game or for specific named weapon that may or may not drop for you. For levels 1-19, +1 to hit willl not matter either. And even if it does, most likely other builds won't really be that much better off.

the +1 matters a lot as i've stated. the thf paladin with 2 more str and no attack penalties will have a higher attack and can keep PA on

This is a game. If you like to play a paladin, and if you like TWF, then there is no reason you shouldn't try it. Whether it works for you, personally, is for you to decide. And if it doesn't, you can always roll up a new toon to avoid your earlier mistakes. This is most likely more fun than playing a race or going with a playstyle that doesn't match your preferences, and, ultimately, is no fun for you to play, even though it maight be more effective.

the point is if you are in a party with others, your performance will have an impact on the battle as i have stated. as i have stated in my earlier post, if you stick with like minded players, there will be no conflicts. the conflict arises when flavor build players with no regard for performance attempt to join elite/epic stuff. it is not fair for the rest of the party to carry you around and this is pretty much happening regularly

[Crann]

the rest of the chain for twf does not reduce the to hit penalty only gives more double strike chances

It gives more off hand Proc chances.

TWF=40%
ITWF=60%
GTWF=80%

AFIK there are no double strike chances associated with the TWF line. They are currently associated with Tempest III and Air Stances.
Edit: Zeal also gives 10% double strike bonus.

[Alternative]

12 starting con is perfectly fine, just - be an evasion pally + don't tank horoth.

And yes, 14str starting will be an issue against epic wiz king (who will dispel all your other buffs)

[RealKorike]

Ah, must have missed that. So yes, drow could have another +1 to hit. Still makes your statement viable for new players that don't have drow yet.

I do agree with your OP - too many people tell brand new players they should stay away from Pally/TWF because 28 points isn't enough, and then point them to human builds who don't even have racial enhancements, so get at most +1 from faith enhancement, if they choose to go with longswords. And actually not even that, because a pally needs to crit and thus should use a high crit weapon.

I say, TWF pally is perfectly feasible for a new player, unless you are not the kind of player who wants to make your very first character the most perfect build in the world. IMHO nobody really plays that way, so there's no point in planning for end game or for specific named weapon that may or may not drop for you. For levels 1-19, +1 to hit willl not matter either. And even if it does, most likely other builds won't really be that much better off.

This is a game. If you like to play a paladin, and if you like TWF, then there is no reason you shouldn't try it. Whether it works for you, personally, is for you to decide. And if it doesn't, you can always roll up a new toon to avoid your earlier mistakes. This is most likely more fun than playing a race or going with a playstyle that doesn't match your preferences, and, ultimately, is no fun for you to play, even though it maight be more effective.

+1 to you, Aschbart - good points!

[AylinIsAwesome]

the main problem with a 28 pt twf paladin isnt just the str but the con as well. 12 con is a very dangerous proposition for a melee with the potential to draw a ton of agro

con = 12 base + 2 tome + 2 exceptional + 6 item = 22 = +6 mod

hp = 200 base + 120 con + 30 feats + 22 toughness feat + 30 gfl + 45 shroud + 60 toughness enh + 20 minos = 527 hp

this toon is pretty much twinked out which most players with only 28 point may not achieve. now you may say that 527 hp is quite a lot but in the endgame tod raid, that is equivalent to a 1 shot on a failed disintegrate from the raid boss horoth. many who have not done it before may think dying is no big deal but in that part of the raid, dying means the boss gets 25% hp more

now lets look at the str problem

str = 14 base + 6 item + 3 exceptional + 5 level up + 2 tome = 30 str. with rage and double madstone, you can get to 36 = +13 mod

attack = 20 bab + 13 str + 3 DF + 3 enh + 5 weapon + 4 GH = +48 or + 43 with power attack on, +52/47 vs evil outsiders

this number is not to bad if we are talking about content on normal, ie ac for arraetrikos on normal shroud L17 raid is 39, 45 on hard, 51 on elite. to take this paladin to elite or epic content, he would be missing quite a lot and thus would turn off PA to compensate for the reduction on the attack bonus. this is also without considering twf penalties (-4/-4 with med or large weapons, -2/-2 with light off hand).


in order to hit arraetrikos on elite on a roll of 2, the pally will require to lose PA and this over 20 attacks, lose 95 damage. now compare this with a thf paladin who is going to have a higher str and no twf penalties, which pally would contribute more in elite/epic content?



its not about building a perfect character, its about building a character that can still function well in both low end and high end content



the +1 matters a lot as i've stated. the thf paladin with 2 more str and no attack penalties will have a higher attack and can keep PA on



the point is if you are in a party with others, your performance will have an impact on the battle as i have stated. as i have stated in my earlier post, if you stick with like minded players, there will be no conflicts. the conflict arises when flavor build players with no regard for performance attempt to join elite/epic stuff. it is not fair for the rest of the party to carry you around and this is pretty much happening regularly

Thank you for explaining what I was saying, only better. +1

[Aschbart]

now you may say that 527 hp is quite a lot but in the endgame tod raid, that is equivalent to a 1 shot on a failed disintegrate from the raid boss horoth.

Hmm... I am confused. The general advice I see for DPS is to get 400+ HPs and not pull aggro. You're the first one I see to point out that 500 is not enough. Is that your honest advice, to get ... how much? >600 HP? On a DPS? How would arcanes ever get close to such a number?

now lets look at the str problem

str = 14 base + 6 item + 3 exceptional + 5 level up + 2 tome = 30 str. with rage and double madstone, you can get to 36 = +13 mod

attack = 20 bab + 13 str + 3 DF + 3 enh + 5 weapon + 4 GH = +48 or + 43 with power attack on, +52/47 vs evil outsiders

this number is not to bad if we are talking about content on normal, ie ac for arraetrikos on normal shroud L17 raid is 39, 45 on hard, 51 on elite. to take this paladin to elite or epic content, he would be missing quite a lot and thus would turn off PA to compensate for the reduction on the attack bonus. this is also without considering twf penalties (-4/-4 with med or large weapons, -2/-2 with light off hand).

+43 against arbitrary targets with PA on according to your numbers
+2 Spectral Gloves
+2 Flanking (i. e. not having aggro)
+3 Attack Boost II
-4 TWF style without OTWF
----
+46 total

--> hiting AC 51 on a 5 or better for the first attacks, on 2+ for all others.

With OtWF and AB III you'd hit on 2+.

For any two-handed weapon the attack bonus would be +1 for having higher Str, +2 for not having TWF modifier, and -3 for not having enhancements, for a total benefit of 0. Even if the TWF version does not take OTWF, the difference will only be 2!

the +1 matters a lot as i've stated. the thf paladin with 2 more str and no attack penalties will have a higher attack and can keep PA on

The +1 might make a difference in conjunction with TWF vs, THF (making it an actual +3 or +5) if you don't consider enhancements. But even with a +5 difference, the TWF Pally could pull off similar or higher DPS by switching off PA and hitting (almost) twice as often: don't forget that a huge chunk of paladin DPS comes from Exalted Smite, Divine Might, and Divine Sacrifice, which all add to main and off hand attacks at the same time!

I'd agree that THF goes a long way for fighters and barbarians, but paladins are a different matter altogether.

P.S.: I just realized that there actually *is* a two-handed high crit range weapon that you can get enhancements for: the falchion. But I won't bother comparing that alternative to the TWF version because both will die from Horth's disintegrate anyway

No, seriously, that would be interesting to compare, although I still think that TWF will win even then. (and yes I know that of course a dwarven paladin could use greataxes with racial enhancements, but how do you get a dwarf to 20 inherent Charisma for Divine might IV?)

[Aranticus]

Hmm... I am confused. The general advice I see for DPS is to get 400+ HPs and not pull aggro. You're the first one I see to point out that 500 is not enough. Is that your honest advice, to get ... how much? >600 HP? On a DPS? How would arcanes ever get close to such a number?

did you see the raid boss in question i have stated? horoth, tod boss. yes assuming you do not pull agro by accident, the main tank is kept alive at all times (in other words, a perfect run), 400+ hp is enough

having ran tod many times, i've seen tanks going in cap because the healers were stunned and unable to heal, in such instances, horoth will go for the rest of the melees (note most casters in tod part 3 are usually in repair mode or stoning orthons). in such instances, a domino effect then occurs, melees die 1 by 1 and horoth goes back to full

+43 against arbitrary targets with PA on according to your numbers
+2 Spectral Gloves
+2 Flanking (i. e. not having aggro)
+3 Attack Boost II
-4 TWF style without OTWF
----
+46 total

--> hiting AC 51 on a 5 or better for the first attacks, on 2+ for all others.

With OtWF and AB III you'd hit on 2+.

for arraetrikos fight, flanking is not always applied but i'd grant that to you. attack boost II, 3 APs, that can be taken easily as well but its going to be very tight and one would probably lose out on cha or LoH enhancements to fit it in. an elven paladin has 7 feats, which ones are you going to miss out to take otwf?

and this is just for a L17 (19 on elite) raid, we have yet to touch on epics where AC in excess of 55 is not uncommon

For any two-handed weapon the attack bonus would be +1 for having higher Str, +2 for not having TWF modifier, and -3 for not having enhancements, for a total benefit of 0. Even if the TWF version does not take OTWF, the difference will only be 2!

an elven thf pally can take falchion enhancements like you mentioned so i wont go there but the difference is now 4. and as stated by many others in this thread, even a difference of 1 can be very important in harder than normal modes

The +1 might make a difference in conjunction with TWF vs, THF (making it an actual +3 or +5) if you don't consider enhancements. But even with a +5 difference, the TWF Pally could pull off similar or higher DPS by switching off PA and hitting (almost) twice as often: don't forget that a huge chunk of paladin DPS comes from Exalted Smite, Divine Might, and Divine Sacrifice, which all add to main and off hand attacks at the same time!

with the changes in attack mechanism, with gtwf, the offhand isnt 100%. its current 80% which means you are doing less dps than before. in addition, the thf is going to have glancing blows. this helps make up for the lack of off hand attack. the thf also benefits from higher PA at the same penalty (10 vs 5 for -5 attack) and higher str bonus of x1.5

I'd agree that THF goes a long way for fighters and barbarians, but paladins are a different matter altogether.

P.S.: I just realized that there actually *is* a two-handed high crit range weapon that you can get enhancements for: the falchion. But I won't bother comparing that alternative to the TWF version because both will die from Horth's disintegrate anyway

not true, the thf pally is likely to have a higher con which can make the difference between 0 and -20 hp. the idea here is not whether you will die or not but rather will you be 1 shotted or not. if you are 1 shotted, it means that healers do not have a fighting chance to save the raid. 25% more hp in tod typically means the healers have to go thru 3-5 pots and another 20-40 heal scrolls. this is in addition to the confusion when they are still trying to heal the dead player when in fact horoth is moving on to another

No, seriously, that would be interesting to compare, although I still think that TWF will win even then. (and yes I know that of course a dwarven paladin could use greataxes with racial enhancements, but how do you get a dwarf to 20 inherent Charisma for Divine might IV?)

most pallys will not go for divine might 4. the problem with divine might is the qualification is severe and the benefit low. in order to get to 20, you are likely to start with 16 cha and use a +4 tome or to put points in during level up. this reduces your str further or you have to wait very long to get your +4 cha tome (note that +4 cha tome currently only drops in tod and epics). most vet pally builders will try to hit 18 cha for divine might 3 instead. the benefit of such is you lose 2 damage from the 2 cha difference but make it up by having 2 more str for +1 attack +1 damage

the paladin's problem is not damage, its hitting stuff. in comparison, my kensai fighter can buff with PA on to 60+ attack

[lord_of_rage]

I really don't get why so many people say you absolutely can't be a 28 point TWF Paladin.

You can if you're an elf. 14 strength, 16 dex, 12 con, 16 cha.

Drow can have 16 strength and 10 intelligence, but... for one thing, yes, the -1 to damage and -1 to hit (mostly the to hit) is kind of a downer. But when you factor in the fact that elves can wield scimitars and they have to take a faith enhancement anyways, they can easily overcome this and come out with a replacement to-hit. As such, their accuracy is as if they had 16 strength, which is what a Drow has. Drow also have a faith enhancement that adds +1, but it's for rapiers, and... well... piercing is just horrible against undead.

10 int is there, gives you an extra skill, not really worthy of any note, as you'll most likely put the second skill in something that's nice but not necessary.

So, basically, the only advantage Drow would have over Elf is +1 damage, and maybe +1 to hit with offhand weapons... but Smite Evil adds your charisma to your to-hit, and it tends to be pretty massive, and abilities like Smite Evil are one of the reasons Paladins excel so much in TWF. So, in the end, if the off-hand procs when you smite, it'll most likely hit anyways.

So yeah. I'm saying it can be done. Is it as effective as 32 point builds or Drow? Not as much... but also not so little that it should be discounted. And with how inflated Strength gets end-game anyways, the -1 damage penalty is kind of a drop in the lake.

The problem with the elf is ap's are really tight. You will give up alot for all that to hit and damage. As many have covered, a 14 str is bad at endgame. Paladins suffer in the to hit catagory. Drow is better.

[Zachski]

I just had inspiration! Inspiration I tell you! Inspiraatttioonn!!

You see, I was going about this the wrong way. I was trying to build a 28 pt TWF Paladin the same way you'd build a 32 pt TWF Paladin.

What I need is... Weapon Finesse!

And yes, I know Paladin is feat-starved. Heck, this delays TWF until level 6. But... the reward is having a higher to-hit. And this still has all the important feats, since Paladin generally has one left over feat. The only issue is, some feats come later than others.

For the record, because of this, it can be done with humans and halflings as well, but Elf is still the best due to rapier enhancements. Of course, if you have Drow, this is mostly pointless, unless you don't like drow and don't have 32 point builds yet.

This is completely superior to my old build except in damage, but to-hit is important, right?

This build is not the "best", I'll say that right now. I used tomes to qualify for Divine Might 4 (and then assumed that other +4 tomes would be taken eventually at level 20), but the damage will always be subpar to a proper Drow or 32 point build. All the same, this... might actually be newbie friendly.

Feel free to rip it apart, gut it, criticize it, whatever. I don't expect someone to take this over a 32 point TWF Paladin, but at the same time, I'm just happy I got this idea in the first place, even if it ends up being not the best.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Elf Finesse Paladin
Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Male
(20 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 352
Spell Points: 275 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 22
Reflex: 21
Will: 12

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             14                 18                   18
Dexterity            16                 25                   26
Constitution         12                 16                   16
Intelligence          8                  8                    8
Wisdom                8                  8                    8
Charisma             16                 20                   20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 16
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                     8
Bluff                 3                     5
Concentration         1                     3
Diplomacy             3                     5
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                     5
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  3                     8
Intimidate            3                     5
Jump                  2                     4
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         3                     8
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                     1
Spot                 -1                     1
Swim                  2                     4
Tumble                3.5                   8.5
Use Magic Device      4.5                  16


Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV

EDIT:
Hmm, at some point, I should eat a +2 tome of int so that I can add another point to tumble, because I just learned something. Even though you add half a rank and it doesn't say "N/A" anymore, it doesn't mean that it's usable. Oh well, an inconvenience at best.

And yes, I have ambitions about this for some reason. So sue me.

[eonfreon]

Well, your second idea almost works. But the problem is that there are more ways to gain strength then there are ways to gain dexterity. So you're not gaining that much more to-hit, if any, and losing out on a lot of damage.
A Rage spell alone (or pot) would largely erase the benefit of Dex over Str to-hit wise.
Elven Dex bonuses can help outweigh this a little, but not by much.
Just my opinion.
Play however you like, but when you come to the forums people are going to point things out to you. It's the point of the forums.

[Zachski]

Well, your second idea almost works. But the problem is that there are more ways to gain strength then there are ways to gain dexterity. So you're not gaining that much more to-hit, if any, and losing out on a lot of damage.
A Rage spell alone (or pot) would largely erase the benefit of Dex over Str to-hit wise.
Elven Dex bonuses can help outweigh this a little, but not by much.
Just my opinion.
Play however you like, but when you come to the forums people are going to point things out to you. It's the point of the forums.

For a 32 point build, yes, strength would be the way to go. As they can get meaningful strength. 28 points can't, though, and even with the buffs, they'd still suffer from less to-hit.

Obviously, Finesse has to work for to-hit on some level, otherwise 28 point Rogues would never take it.

In any case, thanks. The fact that it "almost works" is good enough for me.

[lord_of_rage]

For a 32 point build, yes, strength would be the way to go. As they can get meaningful strength. 28 points can't, though, and even with the buffs, they'd still suffer from less to-hit.

Obviously, Finesse has to work for to-hit on some level, otherwise 28 point Rogues would never take it.

In any case, thanks. The fact that it "almost works" is good enough for me.

Str based rogues do much more dps than finesse based rogues. The to hit trade off isnt that bad either. You can get a 34+str. So that comparison doesnt work.

[Junts]

For a 32 point build, yes, strength would be the way to go. As they can get meaningful strength. 28 points can't, though, and even with the buffs, they'd still suffer from less to-hit.

Obviously, Finesse has to work for to-hit on some level, otherwise 28 point Rogues would never take it.

In any case, thanks. The fact that it "almost works" is good enough for me.

The only reason finesse rogues work is that 70% of their damage is sneak attack.

Paladins, not so much.

You are advocating for something that only works from levels 1-8 where basically any paladin build is a god among mortals.