28 point TWF is possible

[Zachski]

If you want flavor, then skip optimization. This game doesn't really do flavor and full out dps that well, if you need proof take a look at rogue mechanic.

As for needing to splash another class to take a PrE, AA isn't really that great and there's ways to get it outside of elf and bard.

And with 5 favored enemies, practically everything is an FE :P

I was referring to Tempest, actually. They just don't have enough feat slots to take Tempest AND other useful feats. And I hate multiclassing.

Yeah, 5 favored enemies, and you get that... late game, I believe? You still have to deal with only one or two favored enemies at the lower levels, and even with Favored Enemies, you can't really match any other class in terms of DPS.

I think some people forget that there's levels before 18...

And yes, I should be able to choose flavor AND optimization so long as that flavor is dependent on the class itself, not some fancy build (That is, I play a Paladin if I want to be a warrior of light and justice. I play Barbarian if I want to be wild and frenzy. I play Wizard if I want to exploit the arcane powers to unleash wrath against my foes. I play Sorcerer if I want to be a dragon-blooded individual whose magic runs through his own veins. Etc.)

[khaldan]

I was referring to Tempest, actually. They just don't have enough feat slots to take Tempest AND other useful feats.

Yeah, 5 favored enemies, and you get that... late game, I believe? You still have to deal with only one or two favored enemies at the lower levels, and even with Favored Enemies, you can't really match any other class in terms of DPS.

I think some people forget that there's levels before 18...

There are, but gear matters far, far more than class below the vale. A pure wizard TR could do more melee damage than most barbs.

As for tempest, what?

Dodge, mobil, SA, ICinsert weapon type here) OTWF, PA, toughness is 7 feats, and grabs everything necessary.

[khaldan]

And yes, I should be able to choose flavor AND optimization so long as that flavor is dependent on the class itself, not some fancy build (That is, I play a Paladin if I want to be a warrior of light and justice. I play Barbarian if I want to be wild and frenzy. I play Wizard if I want to exploit the arcane powers to unleash wrath against my foes. I play Sorcerer if I want to be a dragon-blooded individual whose magic runs through his own veins. Etc.)

Then play pen and paper?

Or just retcon rangers in your mind to paladins. Heck, I'm fairly certain that's in the DMG somewhere, that if you don't like the flavor, just change it.

[Zachski]

There are, but gear matters far, far more than class below the vale. A pure wizard TR could do more melee damage than most barbs.

As for tempest, what?

Dodge, mobil, SA, ICinsert weapon type here) OTWF, PA, toughness is 7 feats, and grabs everything necessary.

So then, why does every Tempest build I've ever seen splash Fighter for the "extra feat"?

Then play pen and paper?

I wish I could. No D&D groups anywhere within driving distance.

Or just retcon rangers in your mind to paladins. Heck, I'm fairly certain that's in the DMG somewhere, that if you don't like the flavor, just change it.

Sorry, what I see is what I get. And I see a dirty ol' ranger who's wearing light armor, and whose spells revolve entirely around nature. Which is fine, but I'd rather be playing a Druid if that was the case.

Not to mention that my idea of a Paladin is a heavy armor wearing, sword and board wielding (but as this isn't a viable option, I can't do this without being an AC build), holy knight of justice who can burst heal himself with Lay on Hands (something I can't pretend Ranger has), smites evil with his holy power (something Ranger can't do), has the ability to turn undead (something Ranger can't do)

The abilities themselves are part of the flavor, if I hadn't made myself clear.

[khaldan]

So then, why does every Tempest build I've ever seen splash Fighter for the "extra feat"?

Sorry, what I see is what I get. And I see a dirty ol' ranger who's wearing light armor, and whose spells revolve entirely around nature.

Not to mention that my idea of a Paladin is a heavy armor wearing, sword and board wielding (but as this isn't a viable option, I can't do this without being an AC build), holy knight of justice who can burst heal himself with Lay on Hands (something I can't pretend Ranger has), smites evil with his holy power (something Ranger can't do), has the ability to turn undead (something Ranger can't do)

The abilities themselves are part of the flavor, if I hadn't made myself clear.

If you want flavor, then do whatever you want. No one's stopping you.

As for the ranger part: ranger 19 and 20 are almost useless. May as well splash out of them.

One last thing: turn undead sucks. Horribly. The only reason it's useful as all is for the charges that let you use DM.

[Zachski]

If you want flavor, then do whatever you want. No one's stopping you.

Well, except the game itself.

As for the ranger part: ranger 19 and 20 are almost useless. May as well splash out of them.

On every class I've multiclassed in, I've always thought about the abilities I could have gotten at that level if I hadn't splashed a level of fighter/rogue whatever yet. The Ranger I am making (when I'm in the mood for him) is level 4 Ranger/level 1 Rogue. If I hadn't gotten that level of Rogue, I would have gotten my spells one level sooner, and gotten another spell slot and some other things at level 5. As it stands, I don't get Evasion until level 11 when I could have gotten it at level 9.

One last thing: turn undead sucks. Horribly. The only reason it's useful as all is for the charges that let you use DM.

I was including Divine Might in "Turn Undead".

[khaldan]

Well, except the game itself.

.. You posted earlier about having a build that could do what you want it to, and now you're saying the game is keeping you from doing it?

On every class I've multiclassed in, I've always thought about the abilities I could have gotten at that level if I hadn't splashed a level of fighter/rogue whatever yet. The Ranger I am making (when I'm in the mood for him) is level 4 Ranger/level 1 Rogue. If I hadn't gotten that level of Rogue, I would have gotten my spells one level sooner, and gotten another spell slot and some other things at level 5. As it stands, I don't get Evasion until level 11 when I could have gotten it at level 9.

The wonders of multiclassing. Try to remember all the things you're getting instead of that next level.

I was including Divine Might in "Turn Undead".

Meh.

[Zachski]

.. You posted earlier about having a build that could do what you want it to, and now you're saying the game is keeping you from doing it?

Either 1 to-hit makes or breaks a build or it doesn't. Either a 28-point TWF build is viable or it isn't. Even in the face of my arguments, everyone is arguing that it isn't viable and sucks because of lacking one to-hit. If that one to-hit is really THAT important, then what hope do I have?

The wonders of multiclassing. Try to remember all the things you're getting instead of that next level.

I get 9 situational damage and some UMD I won't even be able to use for a long time.

Great trade-off, huh? </sarcasm>

Meh.

My bad.

[khaldan]

Either 1 to-hit makes or breaks a build or it doesn't. Either a 28-point TWF build is viable or it isn't. Even in the face of my arguments, everyone is arguing that it isn't viable and sucks because of lacking one to-hit. If that one to-hit is really THAT important, then what hope do I have?

1 to hit isn't espicially important, it's when you lose 5 or 6 that it starts to become a problem in epic.

I get 9 situational damage and some UMD I won't even be able to use for a long time.

Great trade-off, huh? </sarcasm>

So, you'd rather not have shock on your weapons for most content? Okies

My bad.

Miscommunication happens, not that worried about it.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I was referring to Tempest, actually. They just don't have enough feat slots to take Tempest AND other useful feats. And I hate multiclassing.

You don't need to multiclass a Tempest at all. The only reason a non-Human would multiclass for feat reasons would be to also take Khopesh, but, as I said, Human can easily pick that up.

An Elf or Drow using Scimitars or Rapiers (respectively) would get almost the same DPS though, and of course Dwarves get the Dwarven Axe for free.


The difference (in feats) between a Human Ranger 20 and the Exploiter build is just Combat Expertise, and without the Monk level the Ranger 20 won't get the AC up nearly as high anyway.

[Zachski]

So, you'd rather not have shock on your weapons for most content? Okies

Sure. Shock is good.

The problem is, I don't have shock now. There are no immediate benefits for my Rogue level, other than the 9 sneak attack that I only get sometimes, and I didn't create a Ranger to do sneak attacks. When I want to do that, I play my Rogue.

Planning for the game later is fine, but it takes away from the game now, which is what I'm currently experiencing.

[khaldan]

Sure. Shock is good.

The problem is, I don't have shock now. There are no immediate benefits for my Rogue level, other than the 9 sneak attack that I only get sometimes, and I didn't create a Ranger to do sneak attacks. When I want to do that, I play my Rogue.

Planning for the game later is fine, but it takes away from the game now, which is what I'm currently experiencing.

1d6+3 is better than shock on anything you can SA.

That requirement isn't as harsh as you seem to think it is.

[Zachski]

1d6+3 is better than shock on anything you can SA.

That requirement isn't as harsh as you seem to think it is.

Enemy must not have aggro on me.

I understand that requirement. I solo play, though, so I nearly always have aggro just from entering the room, and I'm not specced for stealth. I can only land a sneak attack if I manage to run up before the enemy's aggro loads up. I've done that with spiders before on my Rogue, kinda fun, but still...

Like I said, if I had wanted to sneak attack, I would have played a Rogue.

[FlyingTurtle]

I get 9 situational damage and some UMD I won't even be able to use for a long time.

Great trade-off, huh? </sarcasm>

Even ignoring the SA... A single class level to be able to totally max out UMD, Disable Device, Open Locks continuously just like a pure rogue; vs... +1 AB and a chance to select another crappy ranger spell to cast out of your nonexistent spell points pool and a capstone that's irrelevant to someone not specced for archery.

[Aranticus]

hi zachski, the problem is where the game restricts building or if people lack imagination, etc. the thing you failed to identify is the nature of gameplay and the players

there are 3 main groups of people. group 1 are those who are here for fun and is more interested in building whacky stuff and/or not really care about skills or performance. group 2 are the extreme end where people are always testing how far they can go in this game by running challenging stuff or doing stuff in the hardest difficulty or in the shortest time possible. group 3 is somewhere in the centre

your problem is you made a sweeping statement that a paladin 28pt can twf. for group 1 sure, there is no problems. but for the group 3 people, its wrong. many people have already tried educating you on some of the problems you can potentially face later on in the game, i wont go there. but i do hope you check out the link in my sig and read the "HOW I BUILD MY TOONS" page in ddowiki

you also want to run higher level stuff to see how the smallest minute detail can have an effect in the outcome. last but not least, a lot of the friction faced in ddo is when people in group 1 with flavor builds running content with group 2 players or vice versa. the differences between the 2 groups are very wide and not easily reconciled. as of this day, there are always players in group 1 trying to sneak into epics or elite raids. the effect is their contribution will be minimal but resource spent on the player is huge. no one likes a non-contributing party member

have fun in you own way thou

[THOTHdha]

So, basically, the only advantage Drow would have over Elf is +1 damage, and maybe +1 to hit with offhand weapons... but Smite Evil adds your charisma to your to-hit, and it tends to be pretty massive, and abilities like Smite Evil are one of the reasons Paladins excel so much in TWF. So, in the end, if the off-hand procs when you smite, it'll most likely hit anyways.

With 16 CHA this Elf you're talking about wouldn't be able to take the highest level of Divine Might. That's two more points of damage.

[Junts]

And guess what elves get? Follower of the Undying Court! +1 to hit with Scimitars, which is on top of the other Scimitar enhancements that Elf can get.

Sure, you don't get Unyielding Sovereignty. But then, raising dead is still useful in a pinch.

Drow get that +1 to rapiers... and from what I understand, piercing is one of the worst weapon types in the game :-/

There's nothing wrong with piercing; rapiers and scimitars are completely identical for damage purposes.

Which is to say, drow are better than 28 pt elves in every way imaginable.

[Zachski]

With 16 CHA this Elf you're talking about wouldn't be able to take the highest level of Divine Might. That's two more points of damage.

+4 tome or 1 level up point and a +3 tome.

That's how most Paladin builds I've seen do things.

In any case, I've already been proven wrong guys, you don't need to keep heaping it on. The horse is dead, let it rot.

[Indoran]

And guess what elves get? Follower of the Undying Court! +1 to hit with Scimitars, which is on top of the other Scimitar enhancements that Elf can get.

Sure, you don't get Unyielding Sovereignty. But then, raising dead is still useful in a pinch.

Drow get that +1 to rapiers... and from what I understand, piercing is one of the worst weapon types in the game :-/

Drow Rogue 2 / pally 18 here ...

You know that rapiers are good when you have to be careful not to get the aggro from the main tank...

But i didnt take that silly vulkoor power... why? cuz it sucks compared to unyielding...

Drow also get racial +2 to hit and +2 damage with rapiers

[Zachski]

In any case, I've already been proven wrong guys, you don't need to keep heaping it on. The horse is dead, let it rot.

See this post I already posted, kthxbye.