28 point TWF is possible

[t0r012]

Really? Well, that's something I didn't know about.

yes really.

don't get me wrong I am not a fan of twf on any 28 point toon.
except rangers cause they can skip the dex req.
Pallies just happen to be the other end of the spectrum where they are the last I would try it on. 3 main things for a pally strength of his arm and sturdiness of health and the beauty of his face dex gives none of those.

My opinion if you want a twf 28 pointer grab a high str/con ranger and go tempest.

[Zachski]

My opinion if you want a twf 28 pointer grab a high str/con ranger and go tempest.

Tempests don't get smite evil, lay on hands, or have the whole "I'm a knight of good" thing going for them, though.

Nor do they have "I'm an expert soldier that's trained in many weapons but specializes in one" thing.

Nor do they have "I'm a rabid fighter who will cleave through you"

What they have is "I'm a very picky individual who wishes he was a druid, and I'm only useful against some enemies. And I have to splash at least one other class in order to actually meet my own PrE pre-requisite"

[khaldan]

If you want flavor, then skip optimization. This game doesn't really do flavor and full out dps that well, if you need proof take a look at rogue mechanic.

As for needing to splash another class to take a PrE, AA isn't really that great and there's ways to get it outside of elf and bard.

And with 5 favored enemies, practically everything is an FE :P

[Zachski]

If you want flavor, then skip optimization. This game doesn't really do flavor and full out dps that well, if you need proof take a look at rogue mechanic.

As for needing to splash another class to take a PrE, AA isn't really that great and there's ways to get it outside of elf and bard.

And with 5 favored enemies, practically everything is an FE :P

I was referring to Tempest, actually. They just don't have enough feat slots to take Tempest AND other useful feats. And I hate multiclassing.

Yeah, 5 favored enemies, and you get that... late game, I believe? You still have to deal with only one or two favored enemies at the lower levels, and even with Favored Enemies, you can't really match any other class in terms of DPS.

I think some people forget that there's levels before 18...

And yes, I should be able to choose flavor AND optimization so long as that flavor is dependent on the class itself, not some fancy build (That is, I play a Paladin if I want to be a warrior of light and justice. I play Barbarian if I want to be wild and frenzy. I play Wizard if I want to exploit the arcane powers to unleash wrath against my foes. I play Sorcerer if I want to be a dragon-blooded individual whose magic runs through his own veins. Etc.)

[khaldan]

I was referring to Tempest, actually. They just don't have enough feat slots to take Tempest AND other useful feats.

Yeah, 5 favored enemies, and you get that... late game, I believe? You still have to deal with only one or two favored enemies at the lower levels, and even with Favored Enemies, you can't really match any other class in terms of DPS.

I think some people forget that there's levels before 18...

There are, but gear matters far, far more than class below the vale. A pure wizard TR could do more melee damage than most barbs.

As for tempest, what?

Dodge, mobil, SA, ICinsert weapon type here) OTWF, PA, toughness is 7 feats, and grabs everything necessary.

[khaldan]

And yes, I should be able to choose flavor AND optimization so long as that flavor is dependent on the class itself, not some fancy build (That is, I play a Paladin if I want to be a warrior of light and justice. I play Barbarian if I want to be wild and frenzy. I play Wizard if I want to exploit the arcane powers to unleash wrath against my foes. I play Sorcerer if I want to be a dragon-blooded individual whose magic runs through his own veins. Etc.)

Then play pen and paper?

Or just retcon rangers in your mind to paladins. Heck, I'm fairly certain that's in the DMG somewhere, that if you don't like the flavor, just change it.

[Zachski]

There are, but gear matters far, far more than class below the vale. A pure wizard TR could do more melee damage than most barbs.

As for tempest, what?

Dodge, mobil, SA, ICinsert weapon type here) OTWF, PA, toughness is 7 feats, and grabs everything necessary.

So then, why does every Tempest build I've ever seen splash Fighter for the "extra feat"?

Then play pen and paper?

I wish I could. No D&D groups anywhere within driving distance.

Or just retcon rangers in your mind to paladins. Heck, I'm fairly certain that's in the DMG somewhere, that if you don't like the flavor, just change it.

Sorry, what I see is what I get. And I see a dirty ol' ranger who's wearing light armor, and whose spells revolve entirely around nature. Which is fine, but I'd rather be playing a Druid if that was the case.

Not to mention that my idea of a Paladin is a heavy armor wearing, sword and board wielding (but as this isn't a viable option, I can't do this without being an AC build), holy knight of justice who can burst heal himself with Lay on Hands (something I can't pretend Ranger has), smites evil with his holy power (something Ranger can't do), has the ability to turn undead (something Ranger can't do)

The abilities themselves are part of the flavor, if I hadn't made myself clear.

[khaldan]

So then, why does every Tempest build I've ever seen splash Fighter for the "extra feat"?

Sorry, what I see is what I get. And I see a dirty ol' ranger who's wearing light armor, and whose spells revolve entirely around nature.

Not to mention that my idea of a Paladin is a heavy armor wearing, sword and board wielding (but as this isn't a viable option, I can't do this without being an AC build), holy knight of justice who can burst heal himself with Lay on Hands (something I can't pretend Ranger has), smites evil with his holy power (something Ranger can't do), has the ability to turn undead (something Ranger can't do)

The abilities themselves are part of the flavor, if I hadn't made myself clear.

If you want flavor, then do whatever you want. No one's stopping you.

As for the ranger part: ranger 19 and 20 are almost useless. May as well splash out of them.

One last thing: turn undead sucks. Horribly. The only reason it's useful as all is for the charges that let you use DM.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I was referring to Tempest, actually. They just don't have enough feat slots to take Tempest AND other useful feats. And I hate multiclassing.

You don't need to multiclass a Tempest at all. The only reason a non-Human would multiclass for feat reasons would be to also take Khopesh, but, as I said, Human can easily pick that up.

An Elf or Drow using Scimitars or Rapiers (respectively) would get almost the same DPS though, and of course Dwarves get the Dwarven Axe for free.


The difference (in feats) between a Human Ranger 20 and the Exploiter build is just Combat Expertise, and without the Monk level the Ranger 20 won't get the AC up nearly as high anyway.

[Bacab]

You can make a 28 point TWF PLD.

Period.

It's just not as good as a 32(or 34/36) point PLD.

Though to Zach...

At levels 2 (Maelstrom) until about level 12ish...I would recommend going 2HF even if you are specced for 2WF.

The reasons are Maelstrom and Carnifex and if by some reason you are sitting on a SoS and are still a 28 pt build (not sure thats possible) you'd 2HF until you had your Greensteel or Holy Sword spell.

Though at level 6 if you have 2 Sunblades...they absolutely rock on undead.

It's pretty obvious that 32 point builds are superior to 28 point builds.

And TBH I would make a 28 Point Halfling over a Drow...but thats because I dislike Drow.

[Zachski]

I just had inspiration! Inspiration I tell you! Inspiraatttioonn!!

You see, I was going about this the wrong way. I was trying to build a 28 pt TWF Paladin the same way you'd build a 32 pt TWF Paladin.

What I need is... Weapon Finesse!

And yes, I know Paladin is feat-starved. Heck, this delays TWF until level 6. But... the reward is having a higher to-hit. And this still has all the important feats, since Paladin generally has one left over feat. The only issue is, some feats come later than others.

For the record, because of this, it can be done with humans and halflings as well, but Elf is still the best due to rapier enhancements. Of course, if you have Drow, this is mostly pointless, unless you don't like drow and don't have 32 point builds yet.

This is completely superior to my old build except in damage, but to-hit is important, right?

This build is not the "best", I'll say that right now. I used tomes to qualify for Divine Might 4 (and then assumed that other +4 tomes would be taken eventually at level 20), but the damage will always be subpar to a proper Drow or 32 point build. All the same, this... might actually be newbie friendly.

Feel free to rip it apart, gut it, criticize it, whatever. I don't expect someone to take this over a 32 point TWF Paladin, but at the same time, I'm just happy I got this idea in the first place, even if it ends up being not the best.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Elf Finesse Paladin
Level 20 Lawful Good Elf Male
(20 Paladin) 
Hit Points: 352
Spell Points: 275 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 22
Reflex: 21
Will: 12

                  Starting            Ending          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats         Base Stats         Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)          (Level 20)           (Level 20)
Strength             14                 18                   18
Dexterity            16                 25                   26
Constitution         12                 16                   16
Intelligence          8                  8                    8
Wisdom                8                  8                    8
Charisma             16                 20                   20

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 16
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                     8
Bluff                 3                     5
Concentration         1                     3
Diplomacy             3                     5
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                3                     5
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  3                     8
Intimidate            3                     5
Jump                  2                     4
Listen               -1                     1
Move Silently         3                     8
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair               -1                    -1
Search               -1                     1
Spot                 -1                     1
Swim                  2                     4
Tumble                3.5                   8.5
Use Magic Device      4.5                  16


Level 1 (Paladin)
Skill: Tumble (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might IV

EDIT:
Hmm, at some point, I should eat a +2 tome of int so that I can add another point to tumble, because I just learned something. Even though you add half a rank and it doesn't say "N/A" anymore, it doesn't mean that it's usable. Oh well, an inconvenience at best.

And yes, I have ambitions about this for some reason. So sue me.

[eonfreon]

Well, your second idea almost works. But the problem is that there are more ways to gain strength then there are ways to gain dexterity. So you're not gaining that much more to-hit, if any, and losing out on a lot of damage.
A Rage spell alone (or pot) would largely erase the benefit of Dex over Str to-hit wise.
Elven Dex bonuses can help outweigh this a little, but not by much.
Just my opinion.
Play however you like, but when you come to the forums people are going to point things out to you. It's the point of the forums.

[Zachski]

Well, your second idea almost works. But the problem is that there are more ways to gain strength then there are ways to gain dexterity. So you're not gaining that much more to-hit, if any, and losing out on a lot of damage.
A Rage spell alone (or pot) would largely erase the benefit of Dex over Str to-hit wise.
Elven Dex bonuses can help outweigh this a little, but not by much.
Just my opinion.
Play however you like, but when you come to the forums people are going to point things out to you. It's the point of the forums.

For a 32 point build, yes, strength would be the way to go. As they can get meaningful strength. 28 points can't, though, and even with the buffs, they'd still suffer from less to-hit.

Obviously, Finesse has to work for to-hit on some level, otherwise 28 point Rogues would never take it.

In any case, thanks. The fact that it "almost works" is good enough for me.