28 point TWF is possible

[Zachski]

I really don't get why so many people say you absolutely can't be a 28 point TWF Paladin.

You can if you're an elf. 14 strength, 16 dex, 12 con, 16 cha.

Drow can have 16 strength and 10 intelligence, but... for one thing, yes, the -1 to damage and -1 to hit (mostly the to hit) is kind of a downer. But when you factor in the fact that elves can wield scimitars and they have to take a faith enhancement anyways, they can easily overcome this and come out with a replacement to-hit. As such, their accuracy is as if they had 16 strength, which is what a Drow has. Drow also have a faith enhancement that adds +1, but it's for rapiers, and... well... piercing is just horrible against undead.

10 int is there, gives you an extra skill, not really worthy of any note, as you'll most likely put the second skill in something that's nice but not necessary.

So, basically, the only advantage Drow would have over Elf is +1 damage, and maybe +1 to hit with offhand weapons... but Smite Evil adds your charisma to your to-hit, and it tends to be pretty massive, and abilities like Smite Evil are one of the reasons Paladins excel so much in TWF. So, in the end, if the off-hand procs when you smite, it'll most likely hit anyways.

So yeah. I'm saying it can be done. Is it as effective as 32 point builds or Drow? Not as much... but also not so little that it should be discounted. And with how inflated Strength gets end-game anyways, the -1 damage penalty is kind of a drop in the lake.

[khaldan]

I really don't get why so many people say you absolutely can't be a 28 point TWF Paladin.

You can if you're an elf. 14 strength, 16 dex, 12 con, 16 cha.

Drow can have 16 strength and 10 intelligence, but... for one thing, yes, the -1 to damage and -1 to hit (mostly the to hit) is kind of a downer. But when you factor in the fact that elves can wield scimitars and they have to take a faith enhancement anyways, they can easily overcome this and come out with a replacement to-hit. As such, their accuracy is as if they had 16 strength, which is what a Drow has. Drow also have a faith enhancement that adds +1, but it's for rapiers, and... well... piercing is just horrible against undead.

10 int is there, gives you an extra skill, not really worthy of any note, as you'll most likely put the second skill in something that's nice but not necessary.

So, basically, the only advantage Drow would have over Elf is +1 damage, and maybe +1 to hit with offhand weapons... but Smite Evil adds your charisma to your to-hit, and it tends to be pretty massive, and abilities like Smite Evil are one of the reasons Paladins excel so much in TWF. So, in the end, if the off-hand procs when you smite, it'll most likely hit anyways.

So yeah. I'm saying it can be done. Is it as effective as 32 point builds or Drow? Not as much... but also not so little that it should be discounted. And with how inflated Strength gets end-game anyways, the -1 damage penalty is kind of a drop in the lake.

People grind ToD until they pull a +4 str tome, which is 'only' +1 damage (and +1 to hit, but that really only matters in epic)

As for the rest, woo 12 con.

[Zachski]

Drow would have 12 con, too. Not a big deal, it can be overcome.

Also, a +4 tome is +2 damage and +2 to hit. And really, the most important thing is the to-hit. Which elf already can overcome very easily.

The fact is, a Paladin with two weapons is already more powerful than a Paladin with THF, even below level 5, where the two are almost on-par with each other. Even with 28 point builds, if you're a Paladin, it's just a better option. Elf can do it. Halfling could, too, but they'd trade strength and constitution... and 12 strength is just too low. And Halfling would get no special faith enhancement to compensate for it, either, unless you like longswords.

[BlackSteel]

Drow would have 12 con, too. Not a big deal, it can be overcome.

Also, a +4 tome is +2 damage and +2 to hit. And really, the most important thing is the to-hit. Which elf already can overcome very easily.

The fact is, a Paladin with two weapons is already more powerful than a Paladin with THF, even below level 5, where the two are almost on-par with each other. Even with 28 point builds, if you're a Paladin, it's just a better option. Elf can do it. Halfling could, too, but they'd trade strength and constitution... and 12 strength is just too low. And Halfling would get no special faith enhancement to compensate for it, either, unless you like longswords.

+4 tome is 2 above an easily acquired +2 tome, which is the other posters point.

and as for the below level 5 part? thats laughable. a carniflex or maelstorm along with 1.5 str bonus is immensely more powerful than a 20-40% offhand proc chance. and from 10-11 before getting GTWF most melee that are capable of using an SoS are far more deadly with it than any other alternatives (unless the character is old enough to have some ml8 fully upgraded greensteel)

[Zachski]

Ah, but what newbie with 28 point builds that went THF because everyone urged him to would have a Carniflex or Maelstrom?

My Smite Evils deal a lot of damage with TWF. They don't with THF.

[khaldan]

So, basically, the only advantage Drow would have over Elf is +1 damage, and maybe +1 to hit with offhand weapons... but Smite Evil adds your charisma to your to-hit, and it tends to be pretty massive, and abilities like Smite Evil are one of the reasons Paladins excel so much in TWF. So, in the end, if the off-hand procs when you smite, it'll most likely hit anyways.

Drow would have 12 con, too. Not a big deal, it can be overcome.

Also, a +4 tome is +2 damage and +2 to hit. And really, the most important thing is the to-hit. Which elf already can overcome very easily.

The fact is, a Paladin with two weapons is already more powerful than a Paladin with THF, even below level 5, where the two are almost on-par with each other. Even with 28 point builds, if you're a Paladin, it's just a better option. Elf can do it. Halfling could, too, but they'd trade strength and constitution... and 12 strength is just too low. And Halfling would get no special faith enhancement to compensate for it, either, unless you like longswords.

These two things make me laugh.

As for halfling, +8 damage and +4 to hit with everything is kinda nice.

[Zachski]

Ah, yeah, I forgot about halfling's Guile enhancement.

All the more reason for 28 point TWF to be considered possible.

And at level 4 (yes, I realize that at level 4, I am not a high level character, and so, am unexperienced in the ways of high level characters. However, I think I've read enough to get the idea of what high level content is like, which is why I don't get why 1 damage and 1 to hit is such a big deal in the grand scheme of things.), my Smite Evils deal over 60 damage when the off-hand procs. This can take some oranges down to almost nothing, in addition to the attacks I am already doing in the chain.

That off-hand proc can be amazing. Once I get the other Paladin abilities, they'll continue to be amazing, especially once I get ITWF and then GTWF. Other than that, I'm still doing just fine.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Sorry, but accuracy and damage are very important in the endgame.

There's a reason people don't build Paladins with 14 starting STR.

[Zachski]

Sorry, but accuracy and damage are very important in the endgame.

There's a reason people don't build Paladins with 14 starting STR.

So, basically, in a game where people deal upwards of 100 damage per slash, 1 more damage is significant?

[AylinIsAwesome]

So, basically, in a game where people deal upwards of 200 damage per slash, 1 more damage is significant?

1 to-hit is significant in Epics.

[Zachski]

1 to-hit is significant in Epics.

And guess what elves get? Follower of the Undying Court! +1 to hit with Scimitars, which is on top of the other Scimitar enhancements that Elf can get.

Sure, you don't get Unyielding Sovereignty. But then, raising dead is still useful in a pinch.

Drow get that +1 to rapiers... and from what I understand, piercing is one of the worst weapon types in the game :-/

[AylinIsAwesome]

And guess what elves get? Follower of the Undying Court! +1 to hit with Scimitars, which is on top of the other Scimitar enhancements that Elf can get.

Sure, you don't get Unyielding Sovereignty. But then, raising dead is still useful in a pinch.

This takes into account that +1.

Drow get that +1 to rapiers... and from what I understand, piercing is one of the worst weapon types in the game :-/

Undead do not appear in a majority of content in the mid and upper levels.

[t0r012]

credit to the ddowiki

Two-weapon fighting reduces the to-hit penalty when using two weapons at the same time. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off-hand lessens by 6, so it becomes -4 (main hand) / -4 (off-hand) (instead of -6/-10 without this feat). If the off-hand weapon is light, the penalties both decrease by another 2 points, down to -2/-2 (instead of -4/-8 without this feat)

on top of -1 to hit from str

-5 to hit could be the difference between having power attack on or off even some of the higher AC mobs on elite , not just epics.

[t0r012]

nobody says you can't do a twf 28 pointer , just that it is difficult.

I don't like you analogy about you 60 point smite a singular instance is nothing. I'm guessing you haven't run much on elite yet? Any Idea what you would be doing with a Falchion or Great Axe with Power Attack on? PA is a bad idea with-4/-4 with a pair of scimmies with less str.

Try a THF with PA and a Gaxe and run through level 4 the same way you have done with your scimmies pick your jaw up off the floor seeing 100+ dmg hits.

point is can you solo the korthos/harbor on normal with a twf 28point pally? yes , easily but you can also do that with a str quarterstaff rogue.
Now go try tears or stk on elite with a twf vs a thf, then make your decision.

yes you can do it but in some cases simplicity wins.

[Zachski]

credit to the ddowiki


on top of -1 to hit from str

-5 to hit could be the difference between having power attack on or off even some of the higher AC mobs on elite , not just epics.

That's why you take the entire TWF chain... most characters will take 16 Dex and either use a +1 Dex tome, or a level up point in dex.

I guess I'm defeated, though. It seems that 1 to-hit can make or break a build, apparently. I wasn't aware that it was really so importantly significant in high levels that it means the difference between gimp and good. Weird.

EDIT: For the record, I can't stand Paladin THF. Dunno why, it just seems weird to me. Also, it doesn't help that the weapon type I would prefer to use, Greatswords, is useless because THF Paladins only ever wield Falchions because of the threat range. And Falchions also happen to be the only weapon with an 18-20 threat range that can't have Holy Sword cast on it. Which means exploring that advantage of the Paladin is impossible unless you want to gimp yourself with a 19-20 threat range.

[t0r012]

That's why you take the entire TWF chain... most characters will take 16 Dex and either use a +1 Dex tome, or a level up point in dex.

I guess I'm defeated, though. It seems that 1 to-hit can make or break a build, apparently. I wasn't aware that it was really so importantly significant in high levels that it means the difference between gimp and good. Weird.

the rest of the chain for twf does not reduce the to hit penalty only gives more double strike chances

[Zachski]

the rest of the chain for twf does not reduce the to hit penalty only gives more double strike chances

Really? Well, that's something I didn't know about.

[t0r012]

Really? Well, that's something I didn't know about.

yes really.

don't get me wrong I am not a fan of twf on any 28 point toon.
except rangers cause they can skip the dex req.
Pallies just happen to be the other end of the spectrum where they are the last I would try it on. 3 main things for a pally strength of his arm and sturdiness of health and the beauty of his face dex gives none of those.

My opinion if you want a twf 28 pointer grab a high str/con ranger and go tempest.

[Zachski]

My opinion if you want a twf 28 pointer grab a high str/con ranger and go tempest.

Tempests don't get smite evil, lay on hands, or have the whole "I'm a knight of good" thing going for them, though.

Nor do they have "I'm an expert soldier that's trained in many weapons but specializes in one" thing.

Nor do they have "I'm a rabid fighter who will cleave through you"

What they have is "I'm a very picky individual who wishes he was a druid, and I'm only useful against some enemies. And I have to splash at least one other class in order to actually meet my own PrE pre-requisite"

[khaldan]

If you want flavor, then skip optimization. This game doesn't really do flavor and full out dps that well, if you need proof take a look at rogue mechanic.

As for needing to splash another class to take a PrE, AA isn't really that great and there's ways to get it outside of elf and bard.

And with 5 favored enemies, practically everything is an FE :P