28 point TWF is possible

[Zachski]

I really don't get why so many people say you absolutely can't be a 28 point TWF Paladin.

You can if you're an elf. 14 strength, 16 dex, 12 con, 16 cha.

Drow can have 16 strength and 10 intelligence, but... for one thing, yes, the -1 to damage and -1 to hit (mostly the to hit) is kind of a downer. But when you factor in the fact that elves can wield scimitars and they have to take a faith enhancement anyways, they can easily overcome this and come out with a replacement to-hit. As such, their accuracy is as if they had 16 strength, which is what a Drow has. Drow also have a faith enhancement that adds +1, but it's for rapiers, and... well... piercing is just horrible against undead.

10 int is there, gives you an extra skill, not really worthy of any note, as you'll most likely put the second skill in something that's nice but not necessary.

So, basically, the only advantage Drow would have over Elf is +1 damage, and maybe +1 to hit with offhand weapons... but Smite Evil adds your charisma to your to-hit, and it tends to be pretty massive, and abilities like Smite Evil are one of the reasons Paladins excel so much in TWF. So, in the end, if the off-hand procs when you smite, it'll most likely hit anyways.

So yeah. I'm saying it can be done. Is it as effective as 32 point builds or Drow? Not as much... but also not so little that it should be discounted. And with how inflated Strength gets end-game anyways, the -1 damage penalty is kind of a drop in the lake.

[khaldan]

I really don't get why so many people say you absolutely can't be a 28 point TWF Paladin.

You can if you're an elf. 14 strength, 16 dex, 12 con, 16 cha.

Drow can have 16 strength and 10 intelligence, but... for one thing, yes, the -1 to damage and -1 to hit (mostly the to hit) is kind of a downer. But when you factor in the fact that elves can wield scimitars and they have to take a faith enhancement anyways, they can easily overcome this and come out with a replacement to-hit. As such, their accuracy is as if they had 16 strength, which is what a Drow has. Drow also have a faith enhancement that adds +1, but it's for rapiers, and... well... piercing is just horrible against undead.

10 int is there, gives you an extra skill, not really worthy of any note, as you'll most likely put the second skill in something that's nice but not necessary.

So, basically, the only advantage Drow would have over Elf is +1 damage, and maybe +1 to hit with offhand weapons... but Smite Evil adds your charisma to your to-hit, and it tends to be pretty massive, and abilities like Smite Evil are one of the reasons Paladins excel so much in TWF. So, in the end, if the off-hand procs when you smite, it'll most likely hit anyways.

So yeah. I'm saying it can be done. Is it as effective as 32 point builds or Drow? Not as much... but also not so little that it should be discounted. And with how inflated Strength gets end-game anyways, the -1 damage penalty is kind of a drop in the lake.

People grind ToD until they pull a +4 str tome, which is 'only' +1 damage (and +1 to hit, but that really only matters in epic)

As for the rest, woo 12 con.

[Zachski]

Drow would have 12 con, too. Not a big deal, it can be overcome.

Also, a +4 tome is +2 damage and +2 to hit. And really, the most important thing is the to-hit. Which elf already can overcome very easily.

The fact is, a Paladin with two weapons is already more powerful than a Paladin with THF, even below level 5, where the two are almost on-par with each other. Even with 28 point builds, if you're a Paladin, it's just a better option. Elf can do it. Halfling could, too, but they'd trade strength and constitution... and 12 strength is just too low. And Halfling would get no special faith enhancement to compensate for it, either, unless you like longswords.

[BlackSteel]

Drow would have 12 con, too. Not a big deal, it can be overcome.

Also, a +4 tome is +2 damage and +2 to hit. And really, the most important thing is the to-hit. Which elf already can overcome very easily.

The fact is, a Paladin with two weapons is already more powerful than a Paladin with THF, even below level 5, where the two are almost on-par with each other. Even with 28 point builds, if you're a Paladin, it's just a better option. Elf can do it. Halfling could, too, but they'd trade strength and constitution... and 12 strength is just too low. And Halfling would get no special faith enhancement to compensate for it, either, unless you like longswords.

+4 tome is 2 above an easily acquired +2 tome, which is the other posters point.

and as for the below level 5 part? thats laughable. a carniflex or maelstorm along with 1.5 str bonus is immensely more powerful than a 20-40% offhand proc chance. and from 10-11 before getting GTWF most melee that are capable of using an SoS are far more deadly with it than any other alternatives (unless the character is old enough to have some ml8 fully upgraded greensteel)

[Zachski]

Ah, but what newbie with 28 point builds that went THF because everyone urged him to would have a Carniflex or Maelstrom?

My Smite Evils deal a lot of damage with TWF. They don't with THF.

[khaldan]

So, basically, the only advantage Drow would have over Elf is +1 damage, and maybe +1 to hit with offhand weapons... but Smite Evil adds your charisma to your to-hit, and it tends to be pretty massive, and abilities like Smite Evil are one of the reasons Paladins excel so much in TWF. So, in the end, if the off-hand procs when you smite, it'll most likely hit anyways.

Drow would have 12 con, too. Not a big deal, it can be overcome.

Also, a +4 tome is +2 damage and +2 to hit. And really, the most important thing is the to-hit. Which elf already can overcome very easily.

The fact is, a Paladin with two weapons is already more powerful than a Paladin with THF, even below level 5, where the two are almost on-par with each other. Even with 28 point builds, if you're a Paladin, it's just a better option. Elf can do it. Halfling could, too, but they'd trade strength and constitution... and 12 strength is just too low. And Halfling would get no special faith enhancement to compensate for it, either, unless you like longswords.

These two things make me laugh.

As for halfling, +8 damage and +4 to hit with everything is kinda nice.

[Zachski]

Ah, yeah, I forgot about halfling's Guile enhancement.

All the more reason for 28 point TWF to be considered possible.

And at level 4 (yes, I realize that at level 4, I am not a high level character, and so, am unexperienced in the ways of high level characters. However, I think I've read enough to get the idea of what high level content is like, which is why I don't get why 1 damage and 1 to hit is such a big deal in the grand scheme of things.), my Smite Evils deal over 60 damage when the off-hand procs. This can take some oranges down to almost nothing, in addition to the attacks I am already doing in the chain.

That off-hand proc can be amazing. Once I get the other Paladin abilities, they'll continue to be amazing, especially once I get ITWF and then GTWF. Other than that, I'm still doing just fine.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Sorry, but accuracy and damage are very important in the endgame.

There's a reason people don't build Paladins with 14 starting STR.

[Aranticus]

hi zachski, the problem is where the game restricts building or if people lack imagination, etc. the thing you failed to identify is the nature of gameplay and the players

there are 3 main groups of people. group 1 are those who are here for fun and is more interested in building whacky stuff and/or not really care about skills or performance. group 2 are the extreme end where people are always testing how far they can go in this game by running challenging stuff or doing stuff in the hardest difficulty or in the shortest time possible. group 3 is somewhere in the centre

your problem is you made a sweeping statement that a paladin 28pt can twf. for group 1 sure, there is no problems. but for the group 3 people, its wrong. many people have already tried educating you on some of the problems you can potentially face later on in the game, i wont go there. but i do hope you check out the link in my sig and read the "HOW I BUILD MY TOONS" page in ddowiki

you also want to run higher level stuff to see how the smallest minute detail can have an effect in the outcome. last but not least, a lot of the friction faced in ddo is when people in group 1 with flavor builds running content with group 2 players or vice versa. the differences between the 2 groups are very wide and not easily reconciled. as of this day, there are always players in group 1 trying to sneak into epics or elite raids. the effect is their contribution will be minimal but resource spent on the player is huge. no one likes a non-contributing party member

have fun in you own way thou

[THOTHdha]

So, basically, the only advantage Drow would have over Elf is +1 damage, and maybe +1 to hit with offhand weapons... but Smite Evil adds your charisma to your to-hit, and it tends to be pretty massive, and abilities like Smite Evil are one of the reasons Paladins excel so much in TWF. So, in the end, if the off-hand procs when you smite, it'll most likely hit anyways.

With 16 CHA this Elf you're talking about wouldn't be able to take the highest level of Divine Might. That's two more points of damage.

[Zachski]

With 16 CHA this Elf you're talking about wouldn't be able to take the highest level of Divine Might. That's two more points of damage.

+4 tome or 1 level up point and a +3 tome.

That's how most Paladin builds I've seen do things.

In any case, I've already been proven wrong guys, you don't need to keep heaping it on. The horse is dead, let it rot.

[Zachski]

In any case, I've already been proven wrong guys, you don't need to keep heaping it on. The horse is dead, let it rot.

See this post I already posted, kthxbye.

[lord_of_rage]

I really don't get why so many people say you absolutely can't be a 28 point TWF Paladin.

You can if you're an elf. 14 strength, 16 dex, 12 con, 16 cha.

Drow can have 16 strength and 10 intelligence, but... for one thing, yes, the -1 to damage and -1 to hit (mostly the to hit) is kind of a downer. But when you factor in the fact that elves can wield scimitars and they have to take a faith enhancement anyways, they can easily overcome this and come out with a replacement to-hit. As such, their accuracy is as if they had 16 strength, which is what a Drow has. Drow also have a faith enhancement that adds +1, but it's for rapiers, and... well... piercing is just horrible against undead.

10 int is there, gives you an extra skill, not really worthy of any note, as you'll most likely put the second skill in something that's nice but not necessary.

So, basically, the only advantage Drow would have over Elf is +1 damage, and maybe +1 to hit with offhand weapons... but Smite Evil adds your charisma to your to-hit, and it tends to be pretty massive, and abilities like Smite Evil are one of the reasons Paladins excel so much in TWF. So, in the end, if the off-hand procs when you smite, it'll most likely hit anyways.

So yeah. I'm saying it can be done. Is it as effective as 32 point builds or Drow? Not as much... but also not so little that it should be discounted. And with how inflated Strength gets end-game anyways, the -1 damage penalty is kind of a drop in the lake.

The problem with the elf is ap's are really tight. You will give up alot for all that to hit and damage. As many have covered, a 14 str is bad at endgame. Paladins suffer in the to hit catagory. Drow is better.