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Thread: Rogue/?

  1. #1
    Community Member jortann's Avatar
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    Default Rogue/?

    For the next toon I roll I wanted to create a character with some Rogue skills. Now I do not have much interest in sneaky around and backstabbing people. I would much rather carry a big weapon and smash people in the face - just a personal play style choice (and no I have not sought counseling for this issue).

    So my constraints are these. Needs to be Dwarf and most likely a 28 point build (could do 32, maybe - especially since this build seems to need it). But before I put this into the character planner I had a few questions about initial stats...

    Option 1 would be fighter 18/rogue 2
    STR 16
    DEX 14
    CON 16
    INT 14
    WIS 8
    CHA 6

    I would be a THF Great Axe wielding Dwarf with some rogue skills. All my ability increases into strength. Skill points is tight on this - 4 each round. Disable Device, Open Lock, Search and spot or jump. (Question on the spot or jump - would putting skill points into spot help or is the wisdom starting score too low to ever make a difference?)


    Option 2 would be fighter 1/rogue 1/ranger 18
    STR 14
    DEX 16
    CON 16
    INT 14
    WIS 8
    CHA 6

    This guy would be heavy armor, wielding dual Dwarven Axes with rogue skills. Ability increases would go into strength I think? I think I need 2 more in Dexterity for TWF, but I am guessing I can get that with an item. Skill points would go into Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot, Jump, Balance and UMD.

    So my questions...
    Are either of these grossly flawed?
    Is there anything I am missing?
    Which one would be a better damage dealer?

    Thanks for your help.

  2. #2
    Community Member donfilibuster's Avatar
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    Not sure but i think the rogue skills would be cross class on fighter levels and thus cost two points each.
    That's the thing with rogue splashes, it works right away for high int but otherwise need to account for it.

  3. #3
    Community Member jortann's Avatar
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    Default skill points?

    So that would mean that putting skill points into Disable Device and Open Lock on ranger levels would also cost twice as much, right? This makes the fighter option look bad. It doesn't look like there would be enough skill points to go around.

  4. #4
    Community Member Rusty_Can's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jortann View Post
    Option 2 would be fighter 1/rogue 1/ranger 18
    STR 14
    DEX 16
    CON 16
    INT 14
    WIS 8
    CHA 6

    This guy would be heavy armor, wielding dual Dwarven Axes with rogue skills. Ability increases would go into strength I think? I think I need 2 more in Dexterity for TWF, but I am guessing I can get that with an item. Skill points would go into Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Spot, Jump, Balance and UMD.

    So my questions...
    Are either of these grossly flawed?
    Is there anything I am missing?
    Option 2 is messed up.

    Heavy Armor: 9 ranger level will grant you Evasion feat, but Evasion doesn't work with Heavy Armor.

    Rangers don't need DEX to qualify for TWF: they get TWF line for free; thus, you can drop DEX a bit.

    As a side note, feat requirements, such as INT for Combat Expertise or DEX for TWF feats, don't take into account items, but only base ability, level-up points and tomes.

    Anyway, if you want rogue skills (spot, search, disable device, open lock, umd), the ranger build looks better.
    On Thelanis: Hallelujah (EK wraith) - Jerryrigged Juggernaut (Fiend Warlock) - Sepulchral (Druid) - Chopchopchop (Monk) - Alleyshadow (retired gimped monkcher). Formerly on Keeper : Misericordia (Thug) - Mumbo Jumbo (Battle Caster) - Infernal Can (WF Kinda Cleric) - Halleluyah (Melee Spellsinger).

  5. #5
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Fighters don't get enough skill pts to maintain trap skills on a rogue-splashed build. I posted a couple of 28-pt DPS trapmonkeys here: one's a THF barbarian, the other's a TWF ranger. Both were made as humans, but can be easily adapted to dwarf instead.

  6. #6
    Community Member jortann's Avatar
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    Thanks guys...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty_Can View Post
    Option 2 is messed up.

    Heavy Armor: 9 ranger level will grant you Evasion feat, but Evasion doesn't work with Heavy Armor.
    I've never had a character with evasion. Will it make up for not having Heavy Armor? Is it better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty_Can View Post
    Option 2 is messed up.

    Rangers don't need DEX to qualify for TWF: they get TWF line for free; thus, you can drop DEX a bit.
    Yeah, I knew this but I thought I saw a thread a while back that was saying even though you dont need the minimum dexterity requirements for the TWF feats that they don't work properly or as well unless you have the minimum dexterity. Can anyone clarify that?

    And if I dont need the dexterity that would free up some points to put into wisdom to get the ranger spells.

    Maybe something like...
    STR 14
    DEX 12
    CON 16
    INT 14
    WIS 14
    CHA 6

    Any more advice? Does anyone already have a character planner done for something similar to this?

  7. #7
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jortann View Post
    I've never had a character with evasion. Will it make up for not having Heavy Armor? Is it better?
    Yes, it is. By the time you have Evasion, you'll have hit the "AC doesn't matter (except for certain builds)" stage of the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by jortann View Post
    Yeah, I knew this but I thought I saw a thread a while back that was saying even though you dont need the minimum dexterity requirements for the TWF feats that they don't work properly or as well unless you have the minimum dexterity. Can anyone clarify that?
    Rangers get the TWF feats free regardless of their base DEX; however, the Tempest PrE requires the Dodge / Mobility / Spring Attack feats, which req min DEX 13. Most Tempest builds put 6 pts into DEX and call it a day. The only reason you would need more is if you don't plan to go to ranger 11 and have to take GTWF as a regular feat, in which case you still need to meet the DEX 17 pre-req.
    And if I dont need the dexterity that would free up some points to put into wisdom to get the ranger spells.
    While that's true, a lot of ranger builds dump-stat WIS and rely on items to boost it high enough for spellcasting. You're better off putting those pts elsewhere. EDIT: especially as a 28-pt build who wants trap skills.

    Like so:

    Code:
    Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
    DDO Character Planner Home Page
    
    Level 20 True Neutral Dwarf Female
    (1 Fighter \ 1 Rogue \ 18 Ranger) 
    Hit Points: 332
    Spell Points: 205 
    BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
    Fortitude: 17
    Reflex: 16
    Will: 5
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
    Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
    (28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
    Strength             16                    21
    Dexterity            14                    16
    Constitution         16                    18
    Intelligence         14                    14
    Wisdom                8                     8
    Charisma              6                     6
    
                      Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                     Base Skills         Modified Skills
    Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
    Balance               6                    11
    Bluff                -2                    -2
    Concentration         3                     4
    Diplomacy            -2                    -2
    Disable Device        6                    25
    Haggle                2                     2
    Heal                 -1                    -1
    Hide                  2                     3
    Intimidate           -2                    -2
    Jump                  7                     9
    Listen                3                     3
    Move Silently         2                     3
    Open Lock             6                    24
    Perform              n/a                   n/a
    Repair                2                     2
    Search                6                    27
    Spot                  3                    22
    Swim                  3                     5
    Tumble                6                     7
    Use Magic Device      2                    21
    
    Level 1 (Rogue)
    Skill: Balance (+4)
    Skill: Disable Device (+4)
    Skill: Haggle (+4)
    Skill: Jump (+4)
    Skill: Listen (+4)
    Skill: Open Lock (+4)
    Skill: Search (+4)
    Skill: Spot (+4)
    Skill: Tumble (+4)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
    Feat: (Selected) Toughness
    
    
    Level 2 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead
    
    
    Level 3 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Dodge
    
    
    Level 4 (Fighter)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Mobility
    
    
    Level 5 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+2)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 6 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+3)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack
    
    
    Level 7 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant
    
    
    Level 8 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 9 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
    
    
    Level 10 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 11 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 12 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider
    Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
    
    
    Level 13 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 14 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 15 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
    
    
    Level 16 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 17 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Elemental
    
    
    Level 18 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
    
    
    Level 19 (Ranger)
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    
    
    Level 20 (Ranger)
    Ability Raise: STR
    Skill: Disable Device (+1)
    Skill: Open Lock (+1)
    Skill: Search (+1)
    Skill: Spot (+1)
    Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
    Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
    Enhancement: Ranger Skill Boost I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack II
    Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
    Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution II
    Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
    Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
    Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
    Enhancement: Ranger Item Defense I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
    Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
    Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
    Enhancement: Ranger Tempest III
    Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion I
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion II
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion III
    Enhancement: Ranger Devotion IV
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
    Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
    Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
    Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
    Emp Heal is optional; you could take a different metamagic or something like SF UMD. EDIT: I think this build works a little better as human, but for angry midget lovers, dwarves are the second-best race, IMHO.
    Last edited by unbongwah; 09-01-2010 at 03:57 PM.

  8. #8
    Community Member donfilibuster's Avatar
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    On a fighter maybe search would be more important than open locks.
    After all you normally want the rogue splash to get past traps, while locked doors that block your way are rare.

  9. #9
    Community Member jortann's Avatar
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    Default items?

    What are the items that I would use to boost my wisdom. You guys seem to talk like +6 items are dropping from the sky and maybe they are, but I have a level 8 Wizard (my highest character) and was stoked when I got a +3 CON item. And maybe I have not had my eyes open for + WIS items before.

    Also, could I use a wand of Owls Wisdom? Isn't that like a +4? And then have a +2 item. Would that be resonable for level 6 (when I would actually be a level 4 ranger)?

    Thanks for the help...

  10. #10
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    Default meh

    If you wanted to stay w/ the 2HD, might I suggest something like 18/2 barb/rogue? Otherwise, if going TWF, I'd say dwarven axes, as any of the main dps tempest builds found on here. (type in twf dps comparison, as search)

    As for the statement of +6 wis items, well it depends on what server you're on.
    I know on mine, wis items are insanely priced. (100K-500K pp easy)
    I used the evil neck, +4 wis taint of evil, since I wasn't good. Usually they are check, and at lower levels, don't reallly become an issue w/ any other neck, save for necro's, or TR toons.

    Lastly, I highly suggest using the DDOCharGen application, and be realistic about what gear you're going to have access too, especially tomes, and named stuff. This will help make sure you end up w/ even stats, instead of odd ones.
    Once you flesh it out there, if you have more concerns, I'd post them here, w/ the build in question, along w/ any gear, level up, etc concerns you have.

  11. #11
    Community Member jortann's Avatar
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    Default now it comes to me

    As for the +6 item... as I was playing my other RPGMMO, Outside, (I was in the mission called 'running around the lake') it donned on me that I wouldn't need a +6 item until I get level 4 spells. At level six I would only really need a +3 item. Would the wand of owls wisdom work for that?

    Also thanks for teh help exdarkrobe. I was planning on working it up on the charactrer generator, I was just getting some ideas for starting stats before I invested the time into the character generator. I probably put it up in the next couple of days.

  12. #12
    Build Constructionist unbongwah's Avatar
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    First off, you won't be able to cast any spells until ranger lvl 4, so you have some time to hunt for WIS items; and you only gain new spells once every four levels, letting you space out your WIS item upgrades. Owl's WIS would count for casting purposes, although you wouldn't get any SPs out of it, so it's helpful to have a Wizardry item equipped first. Potions, wands, friendly casters, or the 30-min House P buff are all options. WIS +3 items are min. lvl 5 or 7, IIRC, so that's just the right time to be looking for them. I don't think there are any static (named) WIS +3 items, but there is a WIS +4 ring which drops from the Red Fens (Claw of Vulkoor), so you could grind for that. Then there's a WIS +5 ring from Gianthold or the WIS +6 helm from Plane of Night.

    Bottom line, it takes a little effort, but it's not too hard to get the WIS items you need to cast spells.

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